It’s been a massive week, and we’ve got two podcast conversations to share with you. First, the live podcast that we recorded last week at the Sea Otter Classic with a bunch of interesting industry friends - and then, today’s podcast conversation with Michael Rueckert. You may recognize his company, Centium, from a handful of references in previous podcasts - and after hearing what he has been working on, we had to have him join us on the podcast. We hope you enjoy this conversation as much as we did!

Listen To Second Nature

Why PR Is Now More Powerful Than Paid Search

Michael Rueckert was a ski resort marketing director who got curious about a simple question: when someone asks an AI where to ski, does Snow Basin show up? That curiosity led him down a rabbit hole that eventually became Centium, a platform now working with over 170 outdoor brands to help them understand and improve their visibility across every major AI model.

In this conversation, Michael and Aaron dig into how ChatGPT, Gemini, Claude, and Perplexity each "think" differently about outdoor brands, why landing a GearLab ranking may now be worth more than any paid search campaign, and what it means for marketing when AI starts making purchasing decisions on behalf of humans. They also go deep on the practical side — how to set up Claude projects as a creative co-pilot, why taste is still the irreducible human advantage in an AI world, and why the outdoor industry is actually better positioned than most for what's coming.

Episode 153

Sea Otter Unfiltered!

We went to Sea Otter Classic and brought a bunch of industry friends onto the podcast. Jeremy Dunn (Smith Optics), Braydon Bringhurst (Hard MTB League), Eric Porter (PorterMTB YouTube), Tom Austen (Pelotan), Rachel Fussell (People For Bikes), Steve Blick (Oakley / Shimano) and Yuri Hauswald (GU) all joined us for some great, unfiltered conversations.

Episode 152

Connecting The Dots

We are proud to be supported by Popfly, a platform that connects brands and creators to support campaigns, and plenty more. They simplify the entire partnership, creation and promotion process around campaigns and initiatives, and open doors to additional opportunities for everyone involved.

Work At A Brand? Get A Custom Demo!

Athletes/Creators! Get Started Here.

Job Of The Week

🏆 Athlete management role incoming! Brooks Running has a Principal Program Manager, Athlete role open. Connect the dots between athletes and the product team!

🔥 Aravaipa Running is looking for a Lead Designer & Project Coordinator.

🎯 Veloci Running is hiring a Product Developer in Austin, TX.

🚀 Huckberry has an open role for Copywriter (on-site, not open to remote).

Article Of The Week

Separating the signal from the noise on growth in the industry - Trail Waves is at it again with solid data and analysis!

Trail Waves

Is Trail Running Actually Growing? Here's What the Data Says.

My first trail ultra was the 2019 Orcas Island 50K, which I ran on my 33rd birthday. It was a sliding doors experience that permanently changed my life. Ever since, I’ve dreamt of toeing the line at Western States. As the oldest 100-miler in the world, run each June in my home state of California, it feels like an inevitable pinn…

Read more

13 days ago · 35 likes · 10 comments · Seth LaReau

Show Notes

• Popfly for Brands

• Popfly for Creators

• Michael Rueckert

• Centium

• Christian Rawles on SN

• GearLab

• OpenClaw

• Rick Rubin on "Taste"

• Claude

BPC - Brand, Product, Content

BPC is our closing segment where we share brands we’ve discovered, products we’re using and content we love.

👉 Scott Sports: Michael’s focus outside of Centium is a ski resort, so naturally an outdoor brand with a US office in his home state is the perfect fit for his BPC. Scott makes plenty of great winter (and summer!) sports gear.
🤘 Gnarly Nutrition: Michaels’ go-to nutrition is also based in his home state, the Gnarly crew has supported a bunch of our friends and has a fun approach to their marketing content.
🤣 DBo’s Gnarly Video: If you haven’t already seen this video, THIS IS REQUIRED VIEWING. It’s a few years old, but still hilarious!
📕 Go-Giver (Book): Christian Rawles inspired the connection and conversation in this week’s podcast, and this book was a gift from him, too.

Thank You

Next week, we’ve got a familiar face joining us on the podcast to talk about content, and what brands are missing out on (and how they can adapt to change that). Stay tuned!

We’re releasing this week’s podcast a few days early, because one of the biggest bike events of the year is happening later this week, and we wanted to talk all about it. And - if you’re going to be at Sea Otter - please come join us Thursday and Friday morning at the Smith Optics booth (at 9am) for live podcasts and plenty more.

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Popfly Connects The Dots

The best part about the upcoming week at the Sea Otter Classic is the ability for Brands and Creators to connect directly. But even with a massive international event that hosts over 1,000 vendors, it’s not always as simple as it sounds to make those connections (and Sea Otter only comes around once a year). Popfly is the platform that brings Brands and Creators together in a meaningful way - supporting campaigns as well as creator initiatives. We’ve been using Popfly for our own businesses, and it’s opened new doors for some incredible opportunities, right out of the gate. Please support Second Nature by clicking the links below:

Brands: Get A Personalized Demo

Creators: Start Here!

Bikes Are Bigger Than The Industry Thinks

What if bikes could transform cities, create economies, and solve problems nobody thought they were for?

We're joined today by Peter Abraham, one of the most connected and strategic minds in the bike industry, just ahead of Sea Otter Classic. We cover a lot of ground: the state of the bike industry after a brutal few years, why e-bikes are reaching people the legacy brands never could, what London and Paris figured out about infrastructure that LA hasn't, and why Bentonville might be the most important proof of concept in outdoor sports right now.

Plus: the $21 million Scotland Mountain Bike Innovation Center, the LA Olympics bike infrastructure push, and why the brands at Sea Otter with just a tent and a couple of bikes on stands are leaving a lot on the table.

Episode 151

Job Of The Week

🎙️ Our friends at Voicing Change Media are looking for a Partnerships Manager.

🏆 Global Triathlon Network is hiring new on-camera talent!

Show Notes

• Peter Abraham

• Sea Otter Classic

• Bicycle Leadership Conference

• People For Bikes

• Modern Elder Academy

• The Algorithm (Book)

• Rivian's e-Bike

• Amsterdam, The Bike City (Video)

• Abundance (Book)

• Why Can't We Build Bike Lanes?

• Festival Trail

• Runway Group

• Scotland's MTB Innovation Center

• Atherton Bikes

BPC - Brand, Product, Content

BPC is our closing segment where we share brands we’ve discovered, products we’re using and content we love.

🚴‍♂️ Bicycle Diaries (Book): David Byrne (from the Talking Heads) wrote this book about his cycling adventures all around the world.

🌊 Barbarian Days (Book): Even if you don’t surf, this book is incredible. Arguably one of the best sports memoirs out there.

🤯 Levrack: If you’re building the dream scenario for storage in your garage, this might very well be the most insane setup of all time. We just discovered this brand, and we are obsessed.

🎯 Kitworks: Staying organized once you leave your garage is the real challenge for most of us - Kitworks makes it easy with their gear organization. This completely changed our approach to pre- and post-shred organization (and…let’s be fair, our previous approach was a pile of gear on the passenger seat).

Thank You

An early thank you to everyone who is joining us at the Second Nature meetup at Sea Otter, we can’t wait to see you there!

It feels like it was yesterday that we crossed the milestone for 100 episodes, but would you believe that was almost a year ago? A lot has changed in the past year, and we’re celebrating those changes on today’s episode.

Listen to Second Nature

150 Episodes In, We’re Just Getting Started.

50 episodes. Two years. No shortage of stuff happening.

On this milestone Bro Pod, we take stock of where Second Nature has been, and where things are heading. Digging into what's actually changed in 2026: what we've removed, working with an executive coach, launching a live weekly show, and opening the first mountain bike retail store in Shenzhen, China. Plus a real conversation about the grind before the momentum, why the irons are finally heating up, and what it feels like when years of consistent work starts clicking into place.

Episode 150

Why We Chose Popfly

We went deep on this week’s episode about why we chose Popfly as our first partner with the podcast. The platform has so much value to both Brands and Athletes/Creators, and it’s a great way to make and manage the connection between both sides. If you have a brand campaign, need content made, or just want to find top talent - this is the place. Not only that, but the tools on Popfly streamline the entire process, for both sides of the equation. We HIGHLY recommend a personalized demo of the platform, click below to get set up (and support your favorite podcast in the process).

Work At A Brand? Click here.

Are You A Creator/Athlete? Click here.

Job Of The Week

🏅 Want to work for The Olympics?! The Associate Director, Fan Experiences role is currently open!

👟 New Balance is hiring a Senior Marketing Manager, Global Run.

👉 Columbia Sportswear has an opening for an APAC Marketing Manager.

👀 Going to Outdoor Retailer? The Wild Reach Creator Program is live on Popfly, where 150 creators can get paid to attend the event to make content.

Show Notes

• Second Nature's Catalog

• Dustin Klein Video

• Matt Lloyd-Thomas on Second Nature

• Christian Rawles on Second Nature

• Christian Rawles

• Enneagram

• Super Rider

• Freetrail - Rest Day Pod

• Trailcon

• Outside Interactive’s Revenue

• The Rebooting - Outside Episode

BPC - Brand, Product, Content

BPC is our closing segment where we share brands we’ve discovered, products we’re using, and content we love.

📕 Thinking In Bets (Book): Aaron is currently reading Annie Duke’s book about making decisions with incomplete information.

👟 Speedland RXLDVL: Dylan has been testing all sorts of shoes for his upcoming Hardrock race, and this new release from Speedland is leading the charge.

Thank You

A heartfelt thank you for supporting Second Nature over the past two years as we’ve found our way here. Thank you to everyone who has been a guest on the show, everyone who has shared in the Slack channel, and most importantly - everyone who has listened to us. Upwards and onwards to the next milestone!

We are so excited to have Floris Gierman on the podcast today; we’ve been trying to organize this one for a while, and finally all of our schedules aligned to make it happen! We had a great time digging into his past, present and future - and how they all seem to magically connect to create the perfect conditions for everything he’s putting energy into. We hope you love this conversation as much as we did!

Listen To Second Nature

Connecting Brands and Creators

We are so proud to announce our first ever partnership, and we wanted to make sure that we collaborated with a business that brings value to as many people listening to this episode as possible. If you’re not familiar with Popfly, it’s a platform that connects brands to outdoor, travel and adventure creators. They streamline the entire collaborative process, from bringing the brands and creators together around campaigns, to dealing with payments and affiliate programs to keep it all organized.

From Aaron: Having been on both the Brand and Creator side of this equation, I can tell you that the way Popfly organizes everything is a level above anything else I’ve experienced. Most brand collaborations are chaotic at best, and this platform simplifies it better than anything I’ve seen. I recently set up my storefront and joined my first campaign, and honestly, it felt frictionless compared to every other brand deal I’ve ever done. This is the real deal.

If you’re interested in Popfly, please support Second Nature by using these links:

Personalized Brand Demo

Creator Setup

Why Curiosity Outlasts Strategy

Floris Gierman has it all: he's an author, content creator, co-founder of a running apparel brand, and so much more. His approach in hindsight seems methodical and measured in its approach, but the truth is that this all came around from years of consistent, small steps. In this episode, we dig into the day-to-day as well as the big picture of Floris Gierman's world.

Episode 149

Job Of The Week

🏃 New Balance is hiring a Senior Marketing Manager, Global Run Energy.

🔥 Red Bull is looking for a Brand & Partnerships Manager to drive social strategy.

🚀 Raide Research has five new roles open - go check them out!

Article Of The Week

Seth LaReau drops bangers like this on a regular basis; we’ve become huge fans of Trail Waves. If you were going to invest in trail running as a category, here’s the case to be made for the entire industry. Fascinating to see how Seth pulled it all together here:

Trail Waves

The Trail Running Investment Thesis

Imagine you’re not reading a newsletter article, but instead you’re a founder walking into a partner meeting at a top-tier VC firm, pitching trail running as an investment category…

Read more

a month ago · 34 likes · 9 comments · Seth LaReau

Show Notes

• Floris Gierman

• Path Projects

• Floris on YouTube

• Flo’s First Video

• Extramilest Podcast

• Personal Best Running Club

• Scott Bailey

• Geoff Rowley

• Running Breakthroughs (Book)

• Ryan Hall

• Believe In The Run

• Kilian on Extramilest

BPC - Brand, Product, Content

BPC is our closing segment where we share brands we’ve discovered, products we’re using and content we love. Dylan and Aaron also shared their favorite gear recommendations (unprompted!) from Floris’s brand, Path Projects.

⛳️ Manors Golf: There are a bunch of brands developing in the golf space that are super interesting right now - and Manors is leading the charge!

🤯 KetoneIQ: Floris’s secret weapon for authoring his book Running Breakthroughs was a tiny bottle of KetoneIQ.

👉 Path Projects Base Liner: Dylan’s pick for favorite Path Projects gear is their base layer, something he’s been buying and implementing since they first came out.

📕 The Way Of Excellence (Book): Brad Stulberg has written more than a few incredible books, this one is a guide to true greatness and deep satisfaction in a chaotic world.

👕 Path Projects Basis Tee: Aaron’s pick for favorite Path Projects gear is the Basis Tee. Not only is it great for workouts, runs and rides - it’s the perfect thing for long days in airplanes. Breathable, flexible, durable - and doesn’t get gross like a cotton shirt would after 12 hours of flying.

🔥 Backcountry Slickrock Kit: Aaron’s first campaign (as a creator) with Popfly was around the new Backcountry MTB kit - and he chose the oil slick blue kit for it. Have a look!

Thank You

If you’re going to be on-site at the Sea Otter Classic in a few weeks, we are doing a Second Nature meetup and live podcast recording! Thursday AND Friday morning at the Smith Optics booth, be there at 9am to hang with us. We also have a “Sea Otter Survival Kit” for the first 20 people to show up every day, you don’t want to miss it!

The bar is set pretty high when it comes to a Jonathan Levitt appearance on the podcast. His previous two episodes have been masterclasses in performance vs brand marketing and partnership 101 (go listen to them if you haven’t already). Over the past year, he’s been working hard to develop the Long Run Labs Collective, helping outdoor and running podcasts find brand partnerships that deliver. This episode is all about the key learnings and insights that have come through over that past year.

Listen To Second Nature

The Evolution of Brands, Athletes and Creators

If there's one thing for certain, it's that nothing ever stays the same - doubly so if you're a brand in the outdoor space or an athlete or creator. Over the past year, we've had so many discussions about what's working, the right way to approach it, and how it has evolved.

Episode 148

Job Of The Week

👀 Keen has a role open for a Senior Director, Social Media and 16 other jobs!

🚀 Hollow Socks (mentioned in this week’s episode) is hiring a Sr Manager, Fulfillment & Channel Operations.

😳 Steamboat Springs is still looking for a Director of Marketing. Dream job!

🏃 Tracksmith is hiring a Production Manager, based in Boston.

👉 Our friends at Raide Research are have five roles open - have a look!

🔥 Popfly is looking for Freelance video editors and a Senior Growth Marketer.

Article Of The Week

Matt Trappe rules. Every post he shares is loaded with solid insights and actionable stuff. Conveniently, this week’s article is perfectly in line with the theme of our podcast. Read on:

A Matter of Brand

New YouTube Strategies for Athletes and Brands

YouTube is the most streamed video app in the world. Despite that accolade I think it’s still underutilized by brands and athletes in our sport. Collectively we are constantly experimenting with the ways it can be most effective…

Read more

a month ago · 10 likes · Matt Trappe

Show Notes

• Jonathan Levitt

• Small Shows Hit Different

• Hollow Socks

• Hollow Socks on Second Nature

• Jonathan's Previous SN episode

• Brand Partnership 101 Article

• Substack Podcasts

• Colleen Quigley

• Kitworks

• Claude

• Eternal

• Alex Mather on Second Nature

• The Huddle

• Second Nature Slack

BPC - Brand, Product, Content

BPC is our closing segment where we share brands we’ve discovered, products we’re using and content we love.

📕 Raziq Rauf "This Is Running" (Book): Raz was recently on the podcast, and now his long-awaited book has hit the shelves! Get your copy now if you haven’t already!
🤯 Seth LaRue Trail Waves: Trail Waves has been referenced in this newsletter multiple times so far, it’s one of our favorite Substacks to check out. Seth dives deep into the industry and offers up some insightful perspectives.
🚴‍♂️ Wahoo Kickr: If you want to ride a bike indoors, this setup is the move. You can drop your existing bike on it, easy setup and tons of fun!

Thank You

Wow, only two episodes until our 150 episode milestone! We’ve got some exciting conversations lined up and we can’t wait to share them with you. In addition to that, we have a special announcement that we’ll be sharing along with episode 150. Stay tuned!

It’s always interesting to have four people on the podcast at one time, but we are so glad that we did it for this week’s episode. Adrian Ballinger, outdoor legend and founder of Alpenglow Expeditions, recently went through an acquisition process with Milky Way Park - and we got a chance to ask Adrian and MWP’s Matt Lloyd-Thomas all about it.

Listen To Second Nature

A Refreshing Approach To Acquisition In the Outdoor Industry

Recently, two long-standing outdoor industry businesses, Alpenglow Expeditions and Thomson Bike Tours, were acquired by Milky Way Park. But while acquisitions are nothing new to the outdoor industry, the way it came together (and continues to develop) is worth a closer look. On this episode, iconic athlete and Alpenglow founder Adrian Ballinger joins Milky Way Park's founder Matthew Lloyd-Thomas to share the story.

Episode 147

Job Of The Week

🚀 Our friends at Raide Research are hiring. Five incredible roles just opened up, take a look and tell them we sent you!

🌎 Lululemon is looking for a Senior Global Sports Marketing Manager.

🏃 Tracksmith is hiring a Production Manager, based in Boston.

👀 Catch the latest job postings and outdoor industry discussion in our (free) Slack Channel:

Join Second Nature Slack

Show Notes

• Adrian Ballinger

• Alpenglow Expeditions

• Matthew Lloyd-Thomas

• Milky Way Park

• Chernin Group

• Unrivaled Sports

• Emily Harrington

• Thomson Bike Tours

• Aiden Charles (Coach)

• The Duffel Shuffle Podcast

• DangerStik

• Mt Everest Ski Project

• Centium AI

BPC - Brand, Product, Content

BPC is our closing segment where we share brands we’ve discovered, products we’re using and content that we love. This week’s guests knocked it out of the park - they delivered on all three categories!

🔧 Luft Bike Shop: Matt’s favorite shop in LA - definitely worth a look!
🚴‍♂️ Zipp 404 Wheels: Fast, favorite wheels from Zipp - a solid option if you’re joining a Thomson Bike Tour (or smashing Strava routes in NYC).
📕 Keith McNally "I Regret Everything" (Book): A memoir about NYC, unreasonable hospitality and plenty more.
🥹 Derek Thompson - Fatherhood: This article caught all the dads on the podcast - it’s a must-read, whether you’re a parent or not.
🧦 Lenz Heated Socks: These socks are an absolute game-changer for Adrian, highly recommended if you have cold feet about getting outside!
🏆 Broken Arrow Skyrace: Legendary Tahoe race, led by friend-of-the-pod Brendan Madigan.
🎙️ Tangle Podcast: A podcast that shares left, right and individual opinions on politics.
📷 Freehub Magazine: Mountain biking’s high quality print magazine, incredible images and storytelling in every episode.
🤯 John Mackey on David Senra: The founder of Whole Foods meets the host of the Founders podcast.
👉 Jason Fried on David Senra: The founder of 37 Signals shares the message: “your only competition is your cost”. Worth a listen!

Thank You

The return of “The Professor” next week - one of our favorite recurring guests joins the podcast to chat about content, partnerships, and how to bring the most value while building trust with the community.

Mel Strong absolutely crushed it during her first appearance on the podcast, and now she’s back for a round two. During this conversation, we cover a lot of ground - but we think you’ll especially find the segment about raising funds and capital deployment to be particularly fascinating.

Listen To Second Nature

The Future Of Investing In The Outdoor Industry

Mel Strong made a meaningful impression during her first appearance on the podcast, and we've got her back on the podcast again to demystify how brands can raise capital, how to speak to boards and VCs, and to answer the all-important question...should we have our own venture fund?

Episode 146

Job Of The Week

🔥 Under Armour is looking for someone to lead Global Brand Events for them. Massive!

🏔️ Saatchi & Saatchi is hiring a Content Specialist for Outdoor and Adventure.

🇬🇧 UK-based? Apidura is hiring a Senior Softgoods Designer.

Article Of The Week

If you’re not already subscribed to Matt Trappe’s Matter Of Brand newsletter, we highly recommend it. Here’s a taste of his most recent article:

A Matter of Brand

A Look at Product Launch Storytelling

I was going to send this Friday but with so many people in LA for the marathon and Las Palmas for Transgrancanaria I decided to wait. I hope the event and travel hangover isn’t hitting you all too hard…

Read more

2 months ago · 22 likes · 3 comments · Matt Trappe

Show Notes

• Mel Strong

• Mel's First Second Nature Episode

• Next Ventures

• TRE - The Running Event

• Nike ACG

• Oura

• Trial Library

• Eternal

• Trucks (VC)

• Next Ventures Substack

• Felix Kim

• Ramble Campgrounds

BPC - Brand, Product, Content

BPC is our closing segment where we share brands we’ve discovered, products we’re using and content that we love.

⛺️ Ramble Campground: Mel recently invested in Ramble, which is building outdoor camping spaces with a fresh, new approach.
👕 Path Projects - Basis Tee: These shirts are becoming Aaron’s go-to for all activities - not just running and riding. We’re looking forward to having Floris from Path on the podcast later this month!
📕 The Courage To Be Disliked (Book): Don’t let the title fool you, there’s a lot more to this book than just the title. Dylan has been reading this one lately and pulling a lot of wisdom from it.

Thank You

This week’s episode was one of our favorites, it’s always great to have Mel join us on the podcast! Next week, we’ll continue with another conversation with a similar thread of investment in the outdoor industry. Stay tuned!

We’ve been big fans of Uplift, and its founder, Rachael Burnside - and we’re excited to share our conversation with her on this week’s podcast. In this episode, she talks about the blueprint that any industry could follow to build this up - not just cycling.

Listen To Second Nature

Uplifting Talent In The Outdoor Industry

Rachael Burnside saw an opportunity to build a stronger community of women in the bike industry by connecting experienced mentors with mentees, which would help build and retain top talent. The fifth round of the Uplift mentorship program is now underway, and in our conversation, Rachael breaks down the playbook of what it took to build this program - and how any other industry can adapt and benefit from making these connections.

Episode 145

Article Of The Week

We recently mentioned The Anti Blueprint Project on the podcast in a BPC segment, and ACG has been a hot topic the past few months. Here’s a deep dive into the brand, from a slightly different angle than we normally get.

The Anti Blueprint Project

ACG

You would have been hard pressed to work within marketing, sports or the outdoors industry and have not seen the current brand focus that Nike are throwing behind ACG. It’s been nothing short of a masterclass and for that we have to give the team the flowers…

Read more

2 months ago · 14 likes · 2 comments · The Anti Blueprint Project

Job Of The Week

💰 Nike has two insane jobs up for grabs: New Business & Corporate Development Lead and Senior Director, New Business & Corporate Development.

🚀 Our friends at Popfly are hiring a Senior Growth Marketer.

⌚️ Amazfit is looking for a Marketing and Partnerships Manager for North America.

Show Notes

• Rachael Burnside

• Uplift

• Shift Active Media

• Rouleur

• Rouleur Live

• Rapha

• Alexa Cunningham

• Kate Veronneau on Second Nature

• Stacy Perlis (CFO at Wahoo)

BPC - Brand, Product, Content

BPC is our closing segment where we share brands that we’ve discovered, products we’re using and content that we love.

🏆 Pure Sport: Electrolytes are all the rage now, and our podcast guest Rachael is a big fan of Pure Sport for all of her cycling needs.
🚴‍♂️ Upway: If you’re finally in the market for an eBike this year, check out Upway. They sell used bikes that have been certified by mechanics. No more sketchy parking lot bike pickups, give this site a look!
👀 Adweek Article - Outside Interactive: It appears that the Outside Interactive ship is starting to trend in the right direction with their digital business. What does that mean for the rest of Outside?

Thank You

Next week we have a returning guest and we can’t wait for you to hear the conversation we had with her. Get ready to learn how to speak business, finance and fundraising!

Thanks again for listening to the podcast, we’re getting incredibly close to our next milestone - almost 150 episodes!

We’re all looking for a blueprint, a formula, a roadmap - anything to help us in our decision making process. Our friend Wylie has spent over a decade pushing through uncharted territory as he’s created an outdoor brand from scratch, and today he’s taking us through every step of the process, with the wisdom he’s earned along the way.

Listen To Second Nature

The Roadmap of Rumpl

Wylie Robinson co-founded Rumpl over a decade ago, bringing an idea to life in the way that every outdoor entrepreneur dreams of doing. Over that time, he's experienced the twists and turns, ups and downs, and during this introspective discussion, we dig into the roadmap and the lessons he's learned from the journey (so far).

Episode 144

Job Of The Week

🏃🏻‍♀️ If you’ve heard us talk about TRE on the pod, now you can work for them! The Running Event is hiring a Marketing Manager to support the event.

🏔️ Hoka is looking for an Associate Creative Director, a remote, full-time position reporting into the VP of Marketing for the North American team.

🔥 Wahoo needs a Senior Project Manager for their indoor training equipment (bikes and treadmills).

Article Of The Week

“Download count is a poor proxy for commercial intent.” Read that again. This is something we’ve always known, but now Jonathan Levitt has the receipts.

Long Run Labs

What 23 Sponsorship Campaigns Taught Me About Endurance Athletes and Money

I’ve been doing brand partnerships in the endurance space since 2020. For most of that time, I priced them above the market CPM rate; not because I had the data to back it up, but because I’d spent enough time working with brands to understand something most podcast sellers don’t: attribution in this space is broken by default, and the actual value bein…

Read more

2 months ago · 2 likes · Long Run Labs

Show Notes

• Wylie Robinson

• Rumpl

• Kickstarter

• Huckberry

• White Road Investments

• Rumpl on Shark Tank

• Rumpl Collabs

BPC - Brand, Product, Content

BPC is our closing segment where we share brands we’ve discovered, products we’re using and content that we love.

🚲 Kids Ride Shotgun: Wylie has been getting his kiddo out on two wheels with the help of this special seat that goes right onto his bike, so they can enjoy rides on trail together!
🚀 TowWhee: If you’re towing anyone with a bike, this little strap is a game changer!
🏆 Super Rider x Chris King: Aaron shot a full factory tour with his friends at Chris King; you’ll be surprised to see everything that goes into making high end bike parts.

Thank You

Stay tuned for next week’s podcast, it’s all about mentorship in the outdoor industry - and a blueprint to build a community of mentors and mentees around the world. We’ve been wanting to have this guest on the podcast for a while, and we think you’ll like it!

We have been huge fans of Christian Rawles - host of the KORE Podcast, but also a wise friend who has helped point us in the right direction more than a few times. This week’s podcast conversation is a little different than the deep dives and backstories that we usually get into - but we think you’ll find it interesting, helpful, and insightful.

Listen To Second Nature

Uncovering The Fear Of Success

Christian Rawles joins the podcast today for an extremely open and honest discussion about career, success, and how we approach our work. Christian has inspired so many thought-provoking conversations offline, we had to get him on the podcast to share his wisdom and insights with everyone. This is a special episode, we hope you enjoy it!

Episode 143

Job Of The Week

🏃🏻‍♀️ While we do our best to highlight a few jobs each week, our friends at WIRE (Work In Running Email) put together a massive list of open roles that you can check out here!

Article Of The Week

Raziq Rauf was on the podcast a few weeks back, and his latest article caught us with the line about social media and podcasts that “talk about running culture only in terms of fashion”. This article with Zoë Rom is a refreshing look at running culture from a much different perspective, and we think you’ll dig it:

Running Sucks

The conspicuous consumption of running culture

Food culture for runners with Zoë Rom…

Read more

2 months ago · 14 likes · 1 comment · Raziq Rauf

Show Notes

• Christian Rawles

• KORE Podcast

• Enneagram Test

• Enneagram Made Easy (Book)

• Tiny Experiments (Book)

• Billy Oppenheimer Newsletter

• The Go-Giver (Book)

• The Lion Tracker's Guide To Life (Book)

• The Gap and The Gain (Book)

• Founders Podcast

• Five Year Journal

BPC - Brand, Product, Content

BPC is our closing segment where we share brands we’ve discovered, products we’re using and content that we love.

⛺️ Durston Gear: Christian’s choice for premium ultralight camping equipment - give them a look!
👉 Centium AI: People are using AI more and more to answer their questions about basically everything. If you want to make sure your brand (product, content) is showing up in the AI’s answers - this is a platform that will help you find out where you stand.
🤯 Jonathan Weaver's Substack: The CMO of Db Travel and author of The Anti-Blueprint Project drops some serious brand knowledge on this platform.
🐺 Powerwolf: Ok, if you’re in the middle of a heavy climb (bikes or running), the song “Amen and Attack” will give you a legitimate boost. This german metal band brings their own style to metal - and that’s the real lesson (listen to this explanation on the podcast, it makes a lot more sense in context).

Thank You

Stay tuned, next week we’ll be joined by a long time founder and friend who was incredibly overdue for an appearance on the podcast!

It’s always fun when we are joined by another podcaster, this episode was a fun way to compare notes and dig into the burning questions we have for a high profile athlete who is making a very significant change to her career. Chasing a completely new discipline requires a lot of change outside of the race course as well, and Des gave us the inside scoop on how she’s thinking through all of it.

Listen To Second Nature

The Past, Present and Future Of Des Linden

After winning the Boston Marathon, writing a book, hosting a giant running podcast...what's next? We caught up with Des Linden to talk about her career so far, but more importantly, where she's heading next.

Episode 142

Job Of The Week

🧦 Hollow Socks has an In-House Content Creator role open. Co-founder Brian Davis was just on the podcast last week, check it out if you haven’t already!

💨 Tailwind Nutrition is looking for a Creative Manager.

👨🏻‍💻 Avelo is hiring an Algorithm Engineer to help make their smart shoes even smarter!

👉 If you’re not already in our Slack community, now would be a great time to join us. Our Slack channel is loaded with news and discussions about every topic related to the outdoor industry, collaborations, and job opportunities.

Join Us In Slack

Article Of The Week

We are big fans of Matt Trappe and this article is a literal masterclass. There’s a reason why we look to him for his insights on brand and storytelling.

A Matter of Brand

The New Brand Paradigm ➡ Culture Stacks

How would I organize a marketing framework for success in our modern world? I just wrapped a consulting project on collab strategy where I found myself revisiting several patterns I had noticed over the years. Also recently, I interviewed at a brand that chose not to engage me in final round interviews and a lot of my ideas were left unsaid. Around the …

Read more

3 months ago · 6 likes · Matt Trappe

Show Notes

• Des Linden

• Nobody Asked Us (Podcast)

• GU x Des Partnership

• Magda Boulet

• Ruth Croft

• Brooks - Chief Running Advisor

• Choosing To Run (Book)

• Marathon des Sables

• Black Canyon 50K

Here’s the Subway Takes clip we mentioned on the pod - check it out!

BPC - Brand, Product, Content

BPC is our closing segment where we share brands we’ve discovered, products we’re using and content that we love.

🏃🏻‍♀️ Brooks Cascadia Elite (as seen at Paris Fashion Week): Des is the “Chief Running Officer” at Brooks, so she brought the latest pair of Brooks shoes to the pod, which are showing up on the runway at Paris Fashion Week.
🥵 Clearlight Infrared Sauna: Aaron had a big life upgrade last week, finally installing his new outdoor infrared sauna. Now Dylan and Aaron have matching infrared saunas! Check these out if you are looking at adding a sauna to your program!
🤯 Nothing.Tech: Dylan dropped this brand on the podcast this week and it caught us all by surprise. Who willingly tries to compete with Apple?! Very cool tech…worth a look.
💰 The Generalist: Here’s a Substack loaded with a ton of insights and articles about the world of tech and VC. Lots of interesting stuff here to check out.

Thank You

Next week’s podcast conversation is a little different than what we usually have on the podcast, but we think you’re going to find it fascinating. It’s called “Uncovering The Fear Of Success”. Stay tuned!

We met the guest of today’s podcast, Brian Davis, at the Outdoor Media Summit last year in Durango. He spoke on a panel that was easily the most talked-about presentation of the week. We knew we needed to bring him on the podcast to hear more, and he did not disappoint!

Listen To Second Nature

The Outdoor Brand Spending $1 MILLION On Ads (Every Month)

You could've heard a pin drop at Outdoor Media Summit when Brian Davis told the audience his brand spends one million dollars on ads every month. But how did he get here? In this week's episode, we got to dive into Brian's history of launching and building brands - and the conversation that followed did not disappoint.

Episode 141

Job Of The Week

🏆 Zwift is hiring two roles: Partnerships Marketing Manager and Junior Sports Marketing Coordinator.

Article Of The Week

If you missed the Freetrail episode with Seth LaReau this week, check out his latest article about Tantrums. Also featured in this article is the new Raide Research Firsts Grant, which you should definitely check out!

Trail Waves

Inside Tantrums: How a First-Time Founder Built One of Trail Running's Coolest Brands

Up until late 2025, I assumed the hydration vest market in trail running was more or less solved…

Read more

3 months ago · 3 likes · Seth LaReau

Show Notes

• Brian Davis

• Hollow Socks

• Fix It Sticks

• Back Bottle

• Zach Stuck

• Zach's Agency

• Josh Haskins (New GM)

• Scheels

BPC - Brand, Product, Content

BPC is our closing segment where we share brands that we’ve discovered, products we’re using, and content that we love.

🚴‍♂️ Wahoo Bike: Brian committed to the full Wahoo bike with all the bells and whistles, which is getting him through the winter. While their other models (Kickr, etc) get the job done, nothing beats the full setup from Wahoo.
💨 Fanttik X10 Ace Mini Bike Pump: Aaron has taken the leap into the future with this electric bike pump. No more CO2 cartridges, no more hand pumps filling up his pack - this one is super small and super effective. (Plus you can use his coupon code SRX10ACEM for 40% off.)
🤯 Founders Podcast - Kevin Kelly: Kevin Kelly (the founder of Wired Magazine, among many other things) shared 79 pieces of wisdom, and David Senra from Founders Podcast repeated this timeless wisdom on this podcast.

Thank You

Next week’s podcast is with a top-tier athlete who is just entering the trail running space. We dug into the pivot, but also went deep on the business side of being a top-tier athlete (and podcaster). Stay tuned!

We’ve been wanting to have our friend Raziq Rauf on the podcast for a while, and the timing couldn’t have been better. Aaron is currently starting to work on his first book, turning to Raz for some much-needed advice. In addition, this conversation is an absolute blueprint for how to get a publishing deal, how to write the book, and what to expect along the way. For anyone who has ever wanted to become a published author, this episode is for you!

Listen To Second Nature

How To Write A Book About Running

Raziq Rauf is the author behind "This Is Running" a new book that comes out in a few short months. Raz is also the author behind Running Sucks on Substack, and in this episode we dig into the process of becoming a published author, along with all the necessary hurdles to get over the hurdles to making it happen.

Episode 140

Job Of The Week

🚀 There is a Red Bull Athlete Marketing Manager job open in the Minneapolis region.

🏔️ Arc’teryx is hiring a Global Communications Manager on a temporary full-time basis (through March 2027).

👉 Kinetik Outdoor Products is looking for a Marketing Coordinator based in Central Oregon.

Article Of The Week

If you’re not already reading Raz’s writing over at Running Sucks, consider this your sign to check it out:

Running Sucks

I wrote a book.

2025 has been the strangest year. The world around me repeatedly seemed to catch fire (both literally and figuratively), but in the midst of all of it, I signed a deal to write my first book. And then I wrote it…

Read more

6 months ago · 26 likes · 15 comments · Raziq Rauf

Show Notes

• Raziq Rauf

• This Is Running (Book)

• Running Sucks (Newsletter)

• Batsford Publishing

• David Miller (Photographer)

• Brandon Leonard

• Like The Wind

• Chuck Palahniuk Substack

• Grant Wall (Journalist)

• Sabrina Little - The Examined Run

• Duhkha

BPC - Brand, Product, Content

BPC is our closing segment where we share brands we’ve discovered, products we’re using and content that we love.

📕 "The Running Ground": Raziq is reading this for the second time, this book was authored by Nicolas Thompson, who is CEO of The Atlantic.
🌎 The Paperclip.cc: Friend-of-the-pod Abe Alkhamees created this magazine with cycling stories from all around the world. Issue one was incredible, we’re already excited to see what’s next!
🏛️ Greeking Out (Nat Geo): If you’re a parent, you need this podcast in your life. Greek mythology told in a kid-friendly way, with crazy production value. (Aaron: It’s pretty good for adults, too, I might like it even more than my kids do!)

Thank You

Next week’s podcast conversation is with a founder who we met at Outdoor Media Summit last year. He spoke on one of the panels and when he said, “we spend one million dollars a month on advertising,” our ears perked up. Dylan said this was a Hall of Fame episode, we can’t wait for you to hear it!

This week’s podcast was supposed to be about Eternal, but Dylan and Aaron had to first dig into stories about the early days of Strava and founding (and exiting) The Athletic. Alex Mather brought some incredible insight to the podcast this week, we covered a lot of ground in this episode!

Listen To Second Nature

How To Build a Platform for Lifelong Athletes

Alex Mather and his team at Eternal are building a platform that addresses long term health of active, athletic people looking for a proactive approach. In this episode, we dug into the lessons Alex learned while being an early employee at Strava, founding The Athletic (as well as exiting it) and it all played into his latest venture.

Episode 139

Job Of The Week

🏆 TrainingPeaks is looking for a Partner Activations Manager

👨🏻‍🔬 Eternal is hiring a Performance Technician

🎥 Janji has an open Senior Content Producer role

Article Of The Week

We are big fans of Kyle Frost around here - check out his latest piece about Patagonia, and sign up for Here & There if you haven’t already:

Here & There

Why I'm Not Writing Off Patagonia

I just got back from the Ski Industry Climate Conference, hosted by Atomic, Protect our Winters Europe, and The Winter Sports Sustainability Network (WSN). There are a lot of takeaways I’ll dive into in the coming weeks, but overall, it was a sobering event. The industry is up against massive, systemic issues that intersect economics, policy, climate, a…

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3 months ago · 40 likes · 12 comments · Kyle Frost

Emily Holland recently launched Multifaceted Musings and has been delivering the goods. Check out her most recent article about the year ahead.

Multifaceted Musings

What’s Next for the Outdoor Industry in 2026

The outdoor industry is at a critical inflection point. You’ve probably felt it in conversations with founders, brands, at trade shows, in the increased spotlight on sustainability, and in how consumers are choosing who they spend with and why. The pandemic boom that reshaped everything from product costs to participation is now behind us, and what’s em…

Read more

3 months ago · 3 likes · 2 comments · Emily Holland

Show Notes

• Alex Mather

• Eternal

• The Athletic

• Strava

• Rebecca Rusch

• Mel Strong

• Next Ventures

BPC - Brand, Product, Content

BPC is our closing segment where we share brands that we’ve discovered, products we’re using and content that we love.

💍 Oura: I think everyone on the podcast this week was wearing an Oura Ring, and for good reason. Tracking sleep, activity, and everything in between - in an extremely non-invasive way. Aaron worked there for a while (and continues to use it - six years in), too!
🤯 Nuclear War (Book): This was an instant New York Times bestseller, and it’s exactly what you think it’s going to be: exploring the “what if” behind the worst-case scenario.
🔥 Semafor - Jonah Weiner: The founder of Blackbird Spyplane, a style and culture newsletter, joins the legendary Semafor podcast.
📕 The War Of Art (Book): Need a solid start to the year? This is absolutely the book to get things kicked off. It’s a fast, but effective, book that will help you conquer The Resistance in your life. Highly recommended!

Thank You

Next week on the podcast, we’re joined by our friend Raziq Rauf, the writer behind Running Sucks and a new book that comes out in April, This Is Running. If you’ve ever had an idea for a book or just needed something to get inspired for a creative act, this episode is just for you!

Steve Holmberg joins the podcast for our annual predictions podcast! Every year, he brings insights from the industry and dives deep into multiple categories of predictions. What does participation look like? What will brands need to do? We asked plenty of questions and learned a lot during this conversation!

Listen To Second Nature

Predictions For The Outdoor Industry In 2026

Steve Holmberg joins the podcast for our annual predictions podcast. Based on his insights from the industry, he shares a bit of where we've been - as well as where he thinks we're headed in the year ahead. Steve takes us through his analysis on participation, brands, marketing, product, marketplace, retail and external.

Episode 138

Job Of The Week

👉 Expedition Overland has FIVE jobs open right now, based in Bozeman, Montana.

🚀 Nike is hiring a Senior Director, Sports Marketing, Athlete Development.

🤝 Strava is looking for a Partner Manager, with three days a week in their New York office.

There are even more jobs (and direct lines to hiring managers) in our Slack channel, come join us by clicking the link below. It’s free:

Join Our Slack Channel!

Article Of The Week

Burrito League is here! Trail Waves has a great breakdown of the whole thing, including how Strava and Chipotle dropped the ball (and likely, why they did). Dig into this article, especially the part about why trail running instantly understands this. Long live the Burrito League!

Trail Waves

Burrito League and the Marketing Opportunity Strava and Chipotle Missed

It seems that when one trail closes, another one opens…

Read more

3 months ago · 20 likes · 10 comments · Seth LaReau

Show Notes

• Steve Holmberg

• Insight Accelerator

• Raide

• Half Days

• Mount to Coast

• Norda

• Matt Trappe: Matter of Brand

• Peter Abraham’s Bicycle Trend Report

• Nike ACG

• Terignota

• Grand Slam Bankruptcy

BPC - Brand, Product, Content

BPC is our closing podcast segment, we share brands we’ve discovered, products we’re using and content that we love.

📗 Field Mag: We’re big fans of print media around here, Steve brought his copy of Field Mag issue one this week. Watch our episode on YouTube to watch Steve flip through it on camera!
🤩 Columbia x Star Wars: This is the collab that Aaron has been waiting his entire life for - Star Wars fans unite! Seriously though, the Endor Collection looks incredible.
🔥 Kitworks (Aaron's Ambassador Page!): Aaron announced his partnership with Kitworks this week, definitely check out his new ambassador page (and their gear)!
❄️ Snow Peak: Dylan brought this Japanese-inspired outerwear gear to the podcast this week.

Thank You

We hope you are all getting a strong start to the year, thanks so much for joining us this week on the podcast. Next week we’ll be chatting with someone who is making a platform for lifelong athletes. Stay tuned!

Kicking off 2026 with a brand we’ve been wanting to talk to for a while: FlyLow. After 20 years in the industry, they wrote a book about the journey. We dug into the highs and lows of their story with the co-founder of FlyLow, Dan Abrams.

Listen To Second Nature

20 Years Of Brand Building Lessons: FlyLow

FlyLow was founded by Dan Abrams and Greg Steen twenty years ago to create backcountry ski pants that could hold up to the demands of the sport and terrain. They continued to refine and expand the product line, as their own proficiencies were expanding and refining. Dan joins us this week to share stories and lessons from the journey so far.

Episode 137

Job Of The Week

🔥 Cervelo is looking for a Graphic Designer.

👉 New brand alert! Climatic is on the hunt for a Social & Community Manager.

🌎 1% For The Planet is hiring a Senior Growth Partnerships Manager.

Article Of The Week

Our previous podcast (“All Good Things Must Come To An End”) detailed what a healthy partnership looks like. This article from Long Run Labs continues to build depth on the conversation. Starting with a good fit is the foundation of this whole thing, and Jonathan Levitt nailed it with this article:

Long Run Labs

Why Fit Compounds

Short-term money is loud. Long-term trust is quiet. Most creators know this, but it’s still incredibly hard to act on, especially when an offer lands at the wrong time…

Read more

4 months ago · 8 likes · 2 comments · Long Run Labs

Show Notes

• FlyLow Gear

• Dan Abrams

• Megan Michaelson

• Greg Steen

• Alibaba

• Cactus Outdoor

• CAGR (term)

• Hot Tub Short (FlyLow)

• Anderson Shirt (FlyLow)

• Irwin Fleece (FlyLow)

BPC - Brand, Product, Content

BPC is our closing segment where we share our favorite brands, products we’re using, and content we love.

⛷️ Moment Skis: Dan chose to highlight another Tahoe-based business - a ski company with a community approach to building the foundation of their brand.
💪 Momentous Creatine: Aaron is smashing creatine in a new form these days, chewables. When you don’t have time to mix up powders and potions, you can snag a handful of Creatine Chews to get the job done.
🔥 Todd Snyder: On a podcast talking about outerwear and softgoods, Dylan brought his favorite high end menswear line to BPC. (Dylan also bought a new FlyLow shirt mid-podcast!)

Thank You

We’re looking forward to 2026 and we hope you are, too! Thanks for joining us this week, stay tuned for the next episode where we’ll get all the insights and predictions for 2026. Steve Holmberg rejoins us on the podcast to share all of the goods for the year ahead!

Deep breath: we’re not going anywhere, Second Nature is still going strong! But we are celebrating an incredible chapter in both of our lives that just recently concluded. We needed a full episode to share the story, and we hope that you enjoy it as much as we did.

2025 has been an incredible year. We’re grateful that you’re part of the Second Nature community - thank you for being here. (And thank you for giving us a rating and review on your podcast platform of choice!)

We saved the best for last. 2025 ends with the ultimate Bro Pod, a deep conversation that brings about so many of the lessons we’ve learned over the past decade together.

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All Good Things Must Come To An End

It's the end of an era, and what a chapter it was. Red Bull, the brand that brought Dylan and Aaron together, has graduated Dylan from their official athlete roster. It felt like the perfect time to put the partnership in perspective, with takeaways, stories and lessons from nearly a decade-long partnership. This is the lifecycle of a brand relationship that brings the best out of everyone involved - but, all good things must come to an end.

Episode 136

Slack Channel Exclusive

On this week’s podcast, Aaron agreed to share the internal pitch deck that he used for Dylan’s sponsorship. If you’re in the Slack channel already, take a look. If you’re not already in there, click this link and we’ll get you all set up (it’s free):

Join Our Slack Channel

Article Of The Week

Emily Holland hosted a workshop around goal setting, and has shared all of the wisdom (and structure) in this post. It’s incredible, and it’s definitely got us thinking about our approach to 2026 in some new ways. This is a perfect thing to reflect on as we wind down the year and prepare for the next!

Multifaceted Musings

Reflecting on 2025 and Setting Intentional Goals for 2026

We don’t need to hustle our way into a new year…

Read more

4 months ago · Emily Holland

Show Notes

• Dylan Bowman

• Aaron Lutze

• Lisa Burnes

• Red Bull Lost Coast Film

• Campfire Stories - DBo Croatia

• Red Bull - Dylan’s Last Set

• Freetrail

Thank You

We hope you enjoyed this week’s podcast, and we can’t wait to share the next few episodes. We’ve recorded a ton of podcasts the past few months, and we’re finally getting a chance to share them in January - stay tuned. Have a great holiday - onwards and upwards to 2026!

This week’s podcast came from a chance meeting at Outdoor Media Summit after a session of trail building (hosted by our good friends at GU and Osprey). Chef Corso opens up and shares his origin story, including how he created a business around getting people to eat better while they’re out on the trail.

Speaking of…Chef Corso also gave us a discount code to share for Outdoor Eats. Use “NATUREPOD” at checkout and get 15% off your order. We’ve got our eyes on that titanium spork..

Listen To Second Nature

Behind The Business Of Outdoor Eats

Chef Corso launched Outdoor Eats to improve the quality of trailside food. On his journey to level up everyone’s culinary experience outdoors, he managed to build a brand that includes a TV series (going on its third season), a line of cookbooks, and plenty more. Reaching the outdoor audience has been an iterative process, and we dug into all of the details and steps along the way.

Episode 135

Article Of The Week

“The Art and Science Of Betting On Yourself” by Trail Waves was an incredible read. There was a line in there that resonated so strong: “upside compounds slowly”. Seth has been putting out some incredible writing in the first six months of Trail Waves. This is quickly becoming one of our favorite weekly reads:

Trail Waves

The Art and Science of Betting on Yourself

I launched this newsletter nearly six months ago, but had the idea for well over a year before finally hitting “publish…

Read more

4 months ago · 9 likes · 3 comments · Seth LaReau

Job Of The Week

🚀 Hop on the On Running rocket ship as their Senior Lead - Product Manager, Outdoor.

🧦 Hollow Socks has two open roles: Senior Designer and GM.

🚴‍♂️ The Escape Collective is looking for a Head of Growth Marketing and Partnerships.

🧊 Dometic is hiring a Content Producer.

🧢 Skida has a Marketing Director role open in their Vermont HQ.

Show Notes

• Chef Corso

• Outdoor Eats

• Trail Meals Cookbook

• Chef Corso Substack

• Creativity Inc

• Science Of Scaling

• Heliconia Productions

• Aaron’s SF Peninsula Video

• Titanium Spork

• OE Guided Trips 2026

BPC - Brand, Product, Content

BPC is our closing segment where we share our favorite brands, products we’re using, and content we love.

📕 Why You Eat What You Eat: This is a book about the science around our relationship with food. A fascinating read that ties so perfectly in with our conversation on the podcast this week.

🌶️ Mama Lil’s Peppers: If they’re being recommended by a chef…probably worth checking out!

😳 Red Bull - Everest Ski Video: This needs to be seen to be believed - skiing down from the top of Mt Everest to base camp. Isn’t it crazy that you can casually fly a drone up top and get some of the most epic views in the world? Not to mention how gnarly it would be to ski in such an absolutely treacherous area. This project is not for the faint of heart!

Thank You

Hard to believe that next week’s podcast will be the final pod in 2025. What an incredible year of conversations it’s been. We’ve got something a little different planned for it, and we hope you enjoy. Stay tuned!

The bike industry struggle has been a constant refrain over the past few years, but today’s guest has a different approach: it’s never been a better time to be a cyclist. Ben Coates shares his story of starting off as a race mechanic and putting himself out there to rise to the top, now leading Canyon Bicycles North America. Even if you’re not into bikes, Ben’s story and his approach to accomplishing goals is a great roadmap to follow.

Listen To Second Nature

Behind The Brand: Canyon Bicycles

It’s the dream: starting your career as a mechanic and working your way up to running one of the largest bike companies in the world. Ben Coates recently joined Canyon Bicycles to lead their North American division, and in our discussion, we dug into his journey to learn everything we could about the steps he took and how he handled some of the wildest curveballs imaginable.

Episode 134

Article Of The Week

Our friend Emily Holland’s latest article about partnerships is an absolute must-read:

Multifaceted Musings

Creators Who Understand Sales Win Bigger Partnerships

Some creators hear the word “sales” and want to run straight into the woods forever. I get it, I’ve been there, too. But if you want to build a sustainable creator business, sales is not a dirty word. Sales is the difference between a brand seeing you as a nice-to-have and a brand seeing you as an absolute…

Read more

5 months ago · 4 likes · Emily Holland

If you missed TRE (The Running Event), Matt Trappe recapped the experience in his latest post on A Matter Of Brand:

A Matter of Brand

RunnerCon 2025 Wrapped

Naturally I woke up sick on Sunday. If you aren’t sick after TRE, did you really go? I think each registration should come with a bottle of NyQuil…

Read more

5 months ago · 41 likes · 12 comments · Matt Trappe

Job Of The Week

🔥 Every cyclist we know seems to have a thing for Pas Normal. Now you can work for them as their Destination Everywhere Manager in Europe!

💨 Like The Wind is looking for a Head of Operations. If you’re interested, jump in our Slack Channel and connect with Simon, he’s posted about it in the Jobs channel.

🚴‍♂️ MAAP is hiring a Vice President of Marketing.

🧼 Dr Squatch is hiring a Senior Partnerships & Influencer Manager.

Show Notes

• Ben Coates

• Canyon Bicycles

• Professor Galloway

• John Burke

• Travis Campbell - Eagle Peak

• The Noto Group

• The First 90 Days (Book)

• People For Bikes

• LeBron James x Canyon

BPC - Brand, Product, Content

BPC is our closing segment, where we share brands we’ve discovered, products we’re using and content that we love.

🎣 Sage Flyrod: There’s one item on everyone’s list that’s a bit of a splurge, and for this week’s guest, Ben Coates, it was the Sage Flyrod.

📕 The Science Of Scaling (Book): Ben recommended this book offhand during the BPC discussion and it’s been passed around our crew nonstop since we recorded. Highly recommended!

🎥 Mountains Of The Moon (Trailer): The newest film by Chris Benchetler blends some incredible outdoor action with cutting edge lighting and a Grateful Dead soundtrack. Check it out!

Thank You

We hope you enjoyed this week’s episode - and all of the episodes we’ve published this year. If you haven’t already, please pop over to your favorite podcast app and give Second Nature a review - it helps us tremendously and only takes a few seconds. Thanks again for supporting the podcast!

During this past year’s TrailCon event, we joined Kelly Newlon on a panel and knew that we needed a more in-depth discussion about her approach to athlete sponsorships. This is one of our favorite topics to discuss on the podcast, and Kelly shared some incredible insights during this conversation.

Listen To Second Nature

The Truth About Athlete Sponsorship

Kelly Newlon is leading the way with her approach to athlete sponsorship in the trail running space, and we get into the ethos of her process. Athlete sponsorship is going through some incredible changes at the moment, and this conversation with Kelly highlights the opportunities for both brands as well as athletes - in any sport.

Episode 133

Job Of The Week

👉 Wild Rye is hiring a Marketing Specialist in Sun Valley, Idaho!

🏔️ Deer Valley Resort is looking for a VP of Marketing.

🔥 Nike ACG has an Outwear Apparel Product Design role open.

You’re In Our Slack Channel, Right?

The Second Nature slack channel recently broke 1,000 members, but the link has been buried at the bottom of our show notes. If you’ve heard about it but haven’t joined in yet, here’s the link to get it done.

Second Nature Slack

Show Notes

• Kelly Newlon

• RAD Boulder

• USATF Agent Test

• Jennifer Lichter - Freetrail podcast

BPC - Brand, Product, Content

BPC is our closing segment, where we share brands we’ve discovered, products we’re using and content that we love.

📕 Unreasonable Hospitality (Book): This book isn’t just about hospitality or culinary stuff, it’s a complete mindset that is applicable to just about anything. Kelly recommended it on the podcast, and we were quick to read it immediately afterwards - can confirm, this is a MUST read.

🎥 Dirt Dispatch: Christopher Blevins, the reigning MTB World Cup champion for Men’s Elite XC racing, has coordinated a group of media to deliver something new and different to the world of mountain biking. Dirt Dispatch is something special, and yet another new approach to athlete-driven media from a top tier athlete.

Thank You

We have a mountain of podcasts on the way - founders, leaders, and plenty more insights to help you navigate the B2B world of the outdoor industry. Stay tuned for next week’s pod, it’s a good one!