We met Tom Austen at Sea Otter earlier this year, and after a few minutes chatting with him, we knew there needed to be a dedicated episode with his story. We’ve been using Pelotan for a while (Jeremy Dunn brought it as a BPC for the famous “you can just do things” episode), and now we have the full story.

👉 There is a reference in this podcast to the Gartner Hype Cycle, definitely have a look at this, because it’s appeared in multiple conversations since then. This feels like the perfect visual representation of what many of us have gone (or will go) through.

Listen To Second Nature

The Sunscreen Brand That's Rewriting Performance Science

Tom Austen is the founder of Pelotan, the world's first sun performance brand, and co-founder of Chance Running, a trail running apparel brand he's building with pro athlete and serial entrepreneur Christian Meier. Both brands are based in Girona, Spain — a two-square-kilometer pocket of world-class endurance athletes, cafes, and startups that's become the Boulder of Europe.

In this conversation, Tom walks through how Pelotan went from a sunburn problem on training rides to winning two Tour de Frances with Team Sky in its first year, and how the brand is now pioneering something entirely new: treating the sun as a performance variable rather than just a health risk. He also gets into the Chance origin story, why cross-pollination across categories is the key to building something original, and what it's like to run two high-growth startups at the same time from a city of 100,000 people.

Episode 160

Here To Help

The most common refrain we hear from friends working at brands is “we need to find content creators, but we are strapped on time”. This is the exact problem that Popfly has solved. If you’re working at a brand that needs this kind of help, you need to check this out (and tell them we sent you), it’ll be worth it. And…if you’re an athlete or creator, you should definitely get on this platform - there are brands, ready to support you and looking for your talent. We’re using it outside of the podcast and having a lot of success with it - and this is exactly why we wanted to partner with Popfly in the first place. Highly recommended!

Popfly For Creators

Popfly For Brands

Job Of The Week

👉 Arc’teryx is hiring an Area Community Director for the USA. Check out this job description…this looks really interesting.

Article Of The Week

Congrats to our friend Jonathan Levitt for making the leap one full year ago! Interesting to read his experience over the past year, it’s been fun to watch this unfold (and we’re extremely grateful for his support via the Long Run Labs Network).

Jonathan Levitt

One Year of Betting on Myself

A year ago I left a job I’d held for over a decade…

Read more

5 days ago · 20 likes · 21 comments · Jonathan Levitt

Show Notes

• Tom Austen

• Pelotan

• Chance Running

• Second Nature - Sea Otter Episode

• Christian Meier

• The Gartner Hype Cycle

• Pelotan Apres Aftersun

• Pelotan App for Second Nature listeners

• Broken Arrow Skyrace

• Lael Wilcox

BPC - Brand, Product, Content

BPC is our closing segment where we share Brands we’ve discovered, Products we’re using and Content we love.

🥦 Nomio: How far would you go for a performance boost? How about drinking broccoli juice? This was the first we’d heard of this magical elixir, but Tom says it’s legit!
🏆 Adidas World Cup ad: This reference is going to appear in upcoming episodes, and it’s clear after watching this why it made such an impression on so many of our guests.
⚽️ Nike - Airport soccer: Another legendary World Cup ad from many years ago, we had to dig deep on YouTube to find this one!
🎥 Insta360 GO Ultra: Aaron’s go-to lightweight 4K camera, the size of a GoPro battery! This thing has some serious power, and you won’t even notice it’s there.

Thank You

Next week we’re bringing on an incredibly talented guest who has co-founded both a brand as well as a brand agency. She shares some incredible frameworks that anyone can apply and follow - and gave us so much insight into her approach to entrepreneurship. We can’t wait to share this one with you!

Athletic Brewing has made a substantial impact on the outdoor industry with their “Two For The Trails” program (over $10M funneled to trail advocacy so far). This week, we got to sit down with Bill Shufelt to hear about the founding story, creating a category that everyone had written off, and how he’s navigated the entire process.

Listen To Second Nature

Behind The Brand: Athletic Brewing

Bill Shufelt was a hedge fund analyst who didn't drink, couldn't find a non-alcoholic beer worth ordering, and one night his wife spun him around on a sidewalk and told him to do something about it. Eight years later, Athletic Brewing has 300 employees, four breweries, over a million barrels of capacity, and has almost single-handedly turned non-alcoholic beer from a stigmatized afterthought into 20% of all beer at Whole Foods.

In this conversation, Bill walks through the full journey: the two years of research before he quit his job, the valley of darkness where no brewery, distributor, or investor would take his calls, finding his co-founder John Walker through a brewing forum post (with the words "non-alcoholic" deliberately removed), and the grassroots field marketing strategy that built the brand one race, one taproom, and one six-pack at a time. He also gets into the competitive explosion that followed, why he views 200 brands entering his category as a positive, and what it's like to redefine success once the business reaches cruising altitude.

If you've ever looked at a category and thought "why hasn't anyone fixed this yet", this is the episode that shows you what happens when someone actually does.

Episode 159

Here To Help

The most common refrain we hear from friends working at brands is “we need to find content creators, but we are strapped on time”. This is the exact problem that Popfly has solved. If you’re working at a brand that needs this kind of help, you need to check this out (and tell them we sent you), it’ll be worth it. And…if you’re an athlete or creator, you should definitely get on this platform - there are brands, ready to support you and looking for your talent. We’re using it outside of the podcast and having a lot of success with it - and this is exactly why we wanted to partner with Popfly in the first place. Highly recommended!

Popfly For Creators

Popfly For Brands

Job Of The Week

🚀 Our friends at Popfly are looking for a full-time Customer Success & Onboarding Manager.

🎯 Milky Way Park (just on the pod a few weeks ago) is hiring a Head of Marketing and Engagement.

👀 This adidas role for Director of Partnerships & Affiliate Marketing is still open.

📲 Aravaipa is hiring a Social Media Manager in Phoenix.

🔥 There are more roles open in our Second Nature Slack Channel, if you’re not in there already, we highly recommend it!

Article(s) Of The Week

If this week’s episode on Athletic Brewing got you interested in exploring a few NA Beers, check out this newsletter, The Modern Substitute. Our friend Myles runs this weekly newsletter, which shares all the latest brands and products in the NA category.

The Modern Substitute

Friend of the podcast and all around legend Yuri Hauswald took on an absolutely monumental task: starting dead last in easily the gnarliest 200 mile gravel race on the planet (Unbound) last weekend. The plan was this - for every rider he passed, he would raise money for charity. Yuri also handed out “golden tickets” during the race with prizes to the riders on course. He’ll be posting more about his race effort shortly, but until then, have a look at everything that went into it. Hats off to Yuri for an incredible effort (and outcome)!

Yuri Hauswald

The Summit Push

As you all know, five months ago I began a journey to be my best physical self for the 2026 Unbound 200, considered by many to be one of the hardest gravel races in the country. To reach that goal I began working with a coach, and good friend, Serena Gordon, who designed a training plan that capitalized on my strengths, focused on my weaknesses, and wa…

Read more

20 days ago · 5 likes · 2 comments · Yuri Hauswald

Show Notes

• Popfly For Brands

• Popfly For Creators

• Bill Shufelt

• Athletic Brewing

• John Walker

• 1000 True Fans (Article)

• Do Things That Don't Scale (Article)

• Two For The Trails

• What It Takes (Book)

• The Obstacle Is The Way (Book)

BPC - Brand, Product, Content

BPC is our closing segment where we share Brands we’ve discovered, Products we’re using and Content that we love. Bill brought all kinds of great stuff to BPC this week, so we had to match his energy with one of our most in-depth BPC segments of all time! (Did anyone else catch him casually referencing a previous episode’s BPC??)

🇮🇪 Dirt - Ireland: Arguably one of the best ongoing content series in the world of outdoor, Huckberry’s Dirt series travels to Ireland.
👖 Gremicci: Bill called these his “weekend dad pants” with tons of pockets, perfect for climbing, too.
🧗‍♂️ Hopa Hopa Climbing Wall: Parents with active kids - here’s the pro version of the indoor climbing wall. These look rad!
🏃‍♂️ Kawa: Dylan ran into some hikers recently wearing these pants, and they caught his attention, so much that he stopped them to ask where they were from.
🏔️ Raide Research - LF 5L Vest: Our friends at Raide Research just released a new vest, just in time for a summer of running through the mountains.
🍺 The Modern Substitute: If you want to learn more about NA beers and beverages, our friend Myles puts together a weekly newsletter about all the new products and brands launching in the industry.
🚲 Kids Ride Shotgun: For anyone with kids, this is a great way to ride bikes together. The seat mounts ahead of you, so you can keep an eye on your kiddo. Highly recommended!

Thank You

First, a big thank you to Mel Strong for making the introduction to Bill Shufelt. This was a fun conversation to record, we hope you enjoyed it as much as we did. Stay tuned for next week, we’re joined by someone who was briefly on the podcast a few months back, but we needed to have them back on for a much deeper conversation.

It’s a common refrain on the podcast: “You can just do things!” But the next step after deciding to do something is the most crucial - asking for help. Morgan Tuohy did exactly that when he created Dera, and in today’s podcast, he breaks down exactly how he leaned on the Second Nature community (and others) to help him get his business off the ground. We couldn’t be more proud of Morgan - and our community - for this one, and we’re so excited to share this week’s podcast with you.

Episode 158

What Happens When You Actually Ask For Help

Morgan Tuohy is seven days into the launch of Dera, a trail running belt brand built around a BOA-style dial closure that nobody's tried before in the category. He sold out of two sizes in under eight hours, shipped hundreds of belts from his living room until 3 AM, and had $500 left in his bank account two days before launch. He's 27 years old.

In this conversation, Morgan walks through the full founder journey — from stitching prototypes in his attic with fabric from old running shoes, to convincing one of Osprey's largest factories to take a chance on him, to the moment Tim Tollefson told him he wasn't allowed to NOT do this. He also talks openly about his first failed brand, why he set three rules for himself this time around ("I know nothing, everyone else knows everything, and they all want to help"), and how seven members of the Second Nature Slack channel played a direct role in getting Dera off the ground.

This is a brand launch captured in real time — and a reminder that sometimes the best businesses start with a sewing machine in an attic and the willingness to ask for help.

Episode 158

Connecting The Dots

This past week, we had an incredible outcome - a brand that we connected with on Popfly decided to build a long-term partnership with Aaron and his mountain bike content. This relationship started on Popfly and grew into something incredibly valuable for everyone involved. The Second Nature x Popfly partnership came from the opportunity we saw for both brands and creators to collaborate effortlessly, and now we're getting a chance to experience this firsthand. If you haven’t already given the Popfly platform a look, we highly recommend it.

Popfly For Brands

Popfly For Athletes/Creators

Job Of The Week

💧 HydraPak is looking for a Run Marketing Project Manager based in Longmont, CO.

👉 adidas is hiring a Director, Partnerships & Affiliate Marketing based out of their Portland, Oregon office.

🏃‍♂️ Bandit has a ton of open roles across operations, retail and design - have a look!

Article Of The Week

This is not a drill…Kilian Jornet now has a Substack. If this first article is any indication of what we can expect from him on here, this is an instant-subscribe.

Kilian Jornet

The race I couldn’t miss

At the end of January, I received a text message from Ainhoa…

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16 days ago · 165 likes · 18 comments · Kilian

Show Notes

• Morgan Tuohy

• Dera

• Tim Tollefson

• Our IP Attorney, Ian Gates

• Kitworks

• Second Nature Slack Channel

• Cade Michael

• Clara Froeschner

• Tim Nooney

• Courier Socks

• Claude

• Mammoth Trailfest

• Second Nature Instagram is live!

BPC - Brand, Product, Content

BPC is our closing segment where we share brands we’ve discovered, products we’re using and content we love.

🍽️ Goodles: Gal Gadot took a break from Hollywood to launch a mac-and-cheese company, and Morgan swears by these as his carb of choice!
🩻 Dexa Scan: Like a human-sized scanner to gather data about muscle, body fat and bone density. If you haven’t heard of this five-minute scan, it’s worth a look. Aaron just got his done (and then promptly fed all the results into Claude to find ways to optimize).
👟 Kiprun - Kipsummit Max: Dylan is working hard to prepare for the upcoming Hardrock race, and part of that process is testing all sorts of gear to find the right setup. Kiprun is making a big push into the USA at the moment, and this pair of shoes is currently along for the ride on DBo’s training mission.

Thank You

We want to say a huge THANK YOU to everyone from the Second Nature community that supported Morgan. As much as today’s episode was about Morgan and his effort to launch a new running brand, this podcast was also about how incredibly supportive our community is - and how much knowledge is on tap in our Slack channel (and beyond). Thank you to everyone who helped Morgan, and thank you all for being part of the Second Nature community.

We love to lean on friend-of-the-pod Steve Holmberg for insights into the world of outdoor and brands, but his latest move has our galaxy brains in overdrive. Instead of relying on the typical routes to gather insights from consumers, Steve utilized a new platform to create a totally new way to get the job done. We think you’re going to love this episode - and we can’t wait to see what it inspires you to make!

Listen To Second Nature

You Can Just Build Things Now

Steve Holmberg is one of our favorite recurring guests, and this time, he showed up with something nobody expected. Over the holidays, Steve went from zero coding experience to a fully functional AI-powered app called Field Check, built using the vibe coding platform Lovable. The app connects retail store associates directly to brand product and marketing teams through AI-driven chats that go deeper than any survey can — and he built the whole thing in about a month.

In this conversation, Steve walks through exactly how he did it, what he wishes he'd known before starting, and why AI is "a tool masquerading as a solution." He also deployed Field Check live on the Second Nature Slack channel to surface what the audience actually wants — and the results are fascinating.

Episode 157

The Playbook For Outdoor Brands

Second Nature is proudly supported by Popfly, and recently they posted an article that is an actual playbook to answer the question “How Global Brands Should Partner With Outdoor Creators”. We highly recommend checking it out - and if you’re a Brand in the Outdoor industry, or a creator/athlete, click these links (and support Second Nature) to get set up on the platform, or get a customized brand demo.

Outdoor Brands - Check Out Popfly

Creators/Athletes - Get Set Up

Job Of The Week

Vibram is hiring a Sports Marketing Manager out of their Boulder office. Looking through the job description, this one looks fun!

Article Of The Week

Steve joins us regularly on the show to share insights, predictions and recommendations - but if you don’t want to wait until his next podcast appearance, you can follow him here!

The Field Report

The Desire for Something Different

Why are we seeing Vuori everywhere at the gym? Alo in the studio? Sporty & Rich on the tennis court? Malbon on the course? Or vintage tees on a run…

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23 days ago · 2 likes · Steve Holmberg

Show Notes

• Popfly for Creators

• Popfly for Brands

• Steve Holmberg

• Insight Accelerator

• Lovable

• Field Check

• Supabase

• Cloudflare

• Github

• 2026 Predictions Episode

• Steve's Prediction Post

• TrailCon

BPC - Brand, Product, Content

BPC is our closing segment where we share brands we’ve discovered, products we’re using and content we love.

🎙️ Jason Fried - David Senra Podcast: This episode has been mentioned offline to us quite a few times, it’s an incredibly insightful episode with a founder who built multiple products from scratch - and continues to demonstrate successful (and sustainable) scaling over time.

🪣 Adventure Bucket List: This is a 50-pack of scratch-off cards, organized by state or region, with different adventures that you can take (ranked by location, cost, time of year, etc). A new way to get out there and adventure, we’re already off to a good start with these cards!

Thank You

We always love having Steve Holmberg on the pod - and we can’t wait to see him on stage at TrailCon in just a few weeks. We’re super excited for next week’s podcast - we caught the founder of a new trail running brand 7 days after the launch of his company, and we think it’ll be an insightful look into everything that went into the brand - stay tuned!

Thanks for listening to the podcast this week, if you’re not already with us in the Second Nature Slack Community, here’s the (free) link to join in!

Our friend Maren has been in the world of Brands and Social Media since the earliest days, and the insights that she has gathered along the way can help anyone - brand or creator - become successful. We’re lucky to be able to work with Maren in her current role, and on today’s podcast, we got her to share a ton of actionable insight. This was a fun one, we hope you enjoy it as much as we did:

Listen To Second Nature

What 5.5 Million Followers Taught Her About Brand Social

Maren Hamilton ran global social at The North Face — building and executing a strategy for 5.5 million followers, integrating athletes and creators, and navigating every platform shift from the follow graph to the discovery graph. Then she left to help build Popfly, the creator platform built specifically for the outdoor industry.

In this conversation, Maren shares the playbook she developed at TNF for running brand social at scale, including how to say no to the hundreds of internal requests that flood every social team, why the outdoor buying journey is fundamentally different from fashion and beauty, and what brands still get wrong about TikTok, Threads, and Facebook. Plus: Why Head of Social to CMO is now a real career path, what makes a creator pitch actually land with a brand, and the Adidas sub-two-hour marathon moment that might be the greatest brand activation of the decade.

Episode 156

Marketing Resources For Brands & Creators

On this podcast, and many others, we’ve talked about how Popfly helps brands and creators make connections. But one other thing that we’ve found valuable are the articles and insights they share on their blog. Check out some of the latest articles:

The Missing Piece in Most Tourism Marketing Strategies

Why Outdoor Creators Outperform

The Tools You Need In Your Adventure Creator Toolbox

If you’re a brand or creator reading this, we highly recommend joining us over on Popfly. You can get a custom demo or jump right into the platform using our links:

Creators: Start Here

Brands: Get A Custom Demo

Job Of The Week

👉 If you listened to this week’s episode and got excited about a role in social media, you are in luck! Keen just listed this role: Senior Director, Social Media.

👀 Nike has an opening for a Sports Marketing Director, Running Athlete Development.

Show Notes

• Maren Hamilton

• Popfly

• TNF Instagram

• DBo on X

• TikTok

• Gnara on TikTok

• Taylor Hoekstra

• Popfly Storefront

• Alpaka

• Camp Chef

• Backcountry

BPC - Brand, Product, Content

BPC is our closing segment where we share Brands we’ve discovered, Products we’re using, and Content that we love.

🏔️ Halfdays x HOKA: Maren brought this collaboration to our attention, we haven’t seen HOKA do anything like this before, and it turned out really cool. Have a look if you haven’t already!

👉 Keen x 18 East: Maren shared this collab between the two brands, we’re digging the texture of these shoes, very cool.

🤣 Gnarly Nutrition x DBo: It’s been years since this came out, and we still can’t get enough of this video. If this podcast thing doesn’t work out for DBo, acting might be another career path!

🔥 Supercommunicators (Book): This is probably the closest (and most recent) guide to improving your communication skills, developing relationships, and so much more. Fascinating read!

🎙️ Supercommunicators author on MFM: If you don’t want to read an entire book, this podcast covers a lot of the insights with the author. MFM is a perennial favorite amongst our crew, if you haven’t listened to it, we highly recommend it!

🏆 Adidas Pro Evo 3: The shoe that officially smashed the two hour marathon barrier. You’ve undoubtedly heard about the result, now have a look at the shoe that did it!

Thank You

Next week on the podcast, we are joined by a crowd favorite - but this time, he’s got something completely new that is going to get everyone’s galaxy brains turned on. We can’t wait to share this one with you.

We are so excited to have Matt Trappe back on the podcast, this chat was overdue to say the least. He made his first appearance on a 2025 predictions podcast, and for some reason, it’s taken us until now to get him back in the mix. We hope you’ll agree that it was worth the wait: Matt delivered the goods on this episode. Today’s pod is a literal playbook for brand storytelling.

Listen To Second Nature

What Outdoor Brands Get Wrong About Storytelling

Matt Trappe is a photographer, filmmaker, creative strategist, and the voice behind the Matter of Brand newsletter: one of the most consistently sharp reads on brand building in the outdoor space. In this conversation, Matt and Aaron dig into why leading with innovation and tech has become table stakes rather than a differentiator, the three elements that make a brand story actually stick, and why the most powerful thing a brand can do right now is invest in longer attention channels rather than chasing short-form reach.

Episode 155

The Struggle Is Real, But It Doesn’t Have To Be

Today’s episode covered the pain points that brands face when it comes to storytelling - but one of the tools to make things easier for brands is a platform called Popfly, which connects outdoor brands with creators and athletes. Popfly supports Second Nature, and we are partnered with them because we believe this is truly a valuable solution for our industry. Have a look (or get a custom demo) and you’ll see what we mean:

Work at a Brand? Get a custom demo!

Athletes and Creators - Get setup here!

Job Of The Week

🏔️ HOKA has multiple roles open: Sr. Director, Global Brand and Product / Sr. Designer, Digital Concept Design / Sr. Brand Planning Manager.

❄️ The Snow League is adding two roles to their events team: Event Production Coordinator / Event Operations Manager.

👟 Veloci Running is looking for a Footwear Product Developer.

Article Of The Week

Matt Trappe was our guest on today’s podcast, so we’re definitely going to highlight his Matter Of Brand article on our newsletter. What perfect timing, too - he’s got a fresh article about this week’s biggest event.

A Matter of Brand

On the Ground at Cocodona: The Future is Female and It's Coming Fast.

I picked the perfect year to go see what it’s all about. Just six years old, yet, it has quickly become one of the marquee events on the trail running calendar, an unprecedented ascendance. The Cocodona 250 is not the first 200+ race by any means but it’s the first to unlock some big differentiators. Here’s why you need to be paying attention…

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a month ago · 1 like · Matt Trappe

Show Notes

• Matt Trappe

• Auteur Sportif

• Matter Of Brand

• Matt Trappe on Second Nature (2024)

• MOB - YouTube Strategies

• NASA Artemis Recap

• Hyperlyte - The Kid (Video)

• Kaironic

• Smith Optics

• WSJ - Alternatively Influential

• Second Nature Slack

• Skratch

• Popfly

• Skratch x Auteur Sportif

• Tantrums

BPC - Brand, Product, Content

BPC is our closing segment where we share brands we’ve discovered, products we’re using and content that we love.

⚡️ Are.na: Matt Trappe shared this website, which is a way to collect and organize design inspiration. Sort of like an updated Pinterest for design and branding.

👓 Smith ODS5: If you have glasses (or contacts) and have been looking for a better way to ride/run without them, these new prescription inserts for shield-style sunglasses are Aaron’s recommendation.

Thank You

Wait…it’s May already? The season is officially in full swing, and we couldn’t be more excited. We’ve got some really fun episodes coming up that we can’t wait to share, stay tuned!

We are excited to bring back Jeff Pelletier to the podcast! This time, instead of digging into his backstory (that episode is here), we decided to create a tactical and strategic playbook for brands - and creators - to use for content creation. This was a fun discussion, we hope you find it useful! There is also a link to a powerful brand/content presentation (which has not been published anywhere else) hiding in the podcast and show notes.

Listen To Second Nature

Why Your Brand's YouTube Channel Is Failing (And How to Fix It)

Most outdoor brands have a YouTube problem. They're just not talking about it. Jeff Pelletier is a filmmaker, trail running creator, and one of the most thoughtful students of YouTube strategy and in the outdoor space. In this episode he breaks down why most brand channels are underperforming and what to actually do about it. We cover the difference between consistency and familiarity, why athlete-led channels outperform brand channels, the Marvel cinematic universe framework for building an audience around characters, and how YouTube's new collaboration feature changes the game for brand-creator partnerships.

If you work at a brand, or if you're a creator who wants to bring more value to the brands that back you, this episode is required listening.

Episode 154

Follow Through On This Podcast’s Tactics

One of the big themes on the podcast is finding the right talent to help brands create content. If that's something on your to-do list, you need to check out our partner, Popfly. Their platform connects brands with outdoor, travel, and adventure creators — making it easy to set up content briefs, manage campaigns, handle payments, and run affiliate programs, all in one place. One of the biggest friction points for brands and creators has always been just getting connected and getting to work quickly, and Popfly solves that.

Work At A Brand? Get A Custom Demo!

Creators, Sign Up Here!

Article Of The Week

This is the article from Jeff Pelletier that launched today’s episode, highly recommended!

Show Notes

• Jeff Pelletier on YouTube

• Why Most Brands Fail On YouTube

• Super Rider Facebook

• Darren Rayner / Magnafire

• Floris Gierman on Second Nature

• Path Projects

• Outdoor Media Summit - Brand Preso

• Coros on YouTube

• Park Tool's Sign-Off

• Rickey Gates

• Huckberry - Dirt

• Huckberry Homes

• Cody Townsend - The Fifty Project

BPC - Brand, Product, Content

BPC is our closing segment where we share brands we’ve discovered, products we’re using and content we love.

👀 Hover Air ProMax: This floating follow cam has been popping up everywhere lately, and it’s small enough to fit in your running pack!
🎥 Jeff's Hover Air video: Jeff did a complete video about the Hover Air, if you want to get his direct feedback from using it.
🏆 DJI Osmo Pocket 3: If you’re a creator (or a brand wanting to create), this camera is the best possible piece of gear you can use to capture content. There’s a Pocket 4 being launched very soon, too - but either one will get the job done.

Thank You

Stay tuned for next week’s conversation about Brand Storytelling - a perfect follow-up on today’s episode. We’re excited to have Matt Trappe back on the podcast, it’s a good one!

It’s been a massive week, and we’ve got two podcast conversations to share with you. First, the live podcast that we recorded last week at the Sea Otter Classic with a bunch of interesting industry friends - and then, today’s podcast conversation with Michael Rueckert. You may recognize his company, Centium, from a handful of references in previous podcasts - and after hearing what he has been working on, we had to have him join us on the podcast. We hope you enjoy this conversation as much as we did!

Listen To Second Nature

Why PR Is Now More Powerful Than Paid Search

Michael Rueckert was a ski resort marketing director who got curious about a simple question: when someone asks an AI where to ski, does Snow Basin show up? That curiosity led him down a rabbit hole that eventually became Centium, a platform now working with over 170 outdoor brands to help them understand and improve their visibility across every major AI model.

In this conversation, Michael and Aaron dig into how ChatGPT, Gemini, Claude, and Perplexity each "think" differently about outdoor brands, why landing a GearLab ranking may now be worth more than any paid search campaign, and what it means for marketing when AI starts making purchasing decisions on behalf of humans. They also go deep on the practical side — how to set up Claude projects as a creative co-pilot, why taste is still the irreducible human advantage in an AI world, and why the outdoor industry is actually better positioned than most for what's coming.

Episode 153

Sea Otter Unfiltered!

We went to Sea Otter Classic and brought a bunch of industry friends onto the podcast. Jeremy Dunn (Smith Optics), Braydon Bringhurst (Hard MTB League), Eric Porter (PorterMTB YouTube), Tom Austen (Pelotan), Rachel Fussell (People For Bikes), Steve Blick (Oakley / Shimano) and Yuri Hauswald (GU) all joined us for some great, unfiltered conversations.

Episode 152

Connecting The Dots

We are proud to be supported by Popfly, a platform that connects brands and creators to support campaigns, and plenty more. They simplify the entire partnership, creation and promotion process around campaigns and initiatives, and open doors to additional opportunities for everyone involved.

Work At A Brand? Get A Custom Demo!

Athletes/Creators! Get Started Here.

Job Of The Week

🏆 Athlete management role incoming! Brooks Running has a Principal Program Manager, Athlete role open. Connect the dots between athletes and the product team!

🔥 Aravaipa Running is looking for a Lead Designer & Project Coordinator.

🎯 Veloci Running is hiring a Product Developer in Austin, TX.

🚀 Huckberry has an open role for Copywriter (on-site, not open to remote).

Article Of The Week

Separating the signal from the noise on growth in the industry - Trail Waves is at it again with solid data and analysis!

Trail Waves

Is Trail Running Actually Growing? Here's What the Data Says.

My first trail ultra was the 2019 Orcas Island 50K, which I ran on my 33rd birthday. It was a sliding doors experience that permanently changed my life. Ever since, I’ve dreamt of toeing the line at Western States. As the oldest 100-miler in the world, run each June in my home state of California, it feels like an inevitable pinn…

Read more

2 months ago · 35 likes · 10 comments · Seth LaReau

Show Notes

• Popfly for Brands

• Popfly for Creators

• Michael Rueckert

• Centium

• Christian Rawles on SN

• GearLab

• OpenClaw

• Rick Rubin on "Taste"

• Claude

BPC - Brand, Product, Content

BPC is our closing segment where we share brands we’ve discovered, products we’re using and content we love.

👉 Scott Sports: Michael’s focus outside of Centium is a ski resort, so naturally an outdoor brand with a US office in his home state is the perfect fit for his BPC. Scott makes plenty of great winter (and summer!) sports gear.
🤘 Gnarly Nutrition: Michaels’ go-to nutrition is also based in his home state, the Gnarly crew has supported a bunch of our friends and has a fun approach to their marketing content.
🤣 DBo’s Gnarly Video: If you haven’t already seen this video, THIS IS REQUIRED VIEWING. It’s a few years old, but still hilarious!
📕 Go-Giver (Book): Christian Rawles inspired the connection and conversation in this week’s podcast, and this book was a gift from him, too.

Thank You

Next week, we’ve got a familiar face joining us on the podcast to talk about content, and what brands are missing out on (and how they can adapt to change that). Stay tuned!

We’re releasing this week’s podcast a few days early, because one of the biggest bike events of the year is happening later this week, and we wanted to talk all about it. And - if you’re going to be at Sea Otter - please come join us Thursday and Friday morning at the Smith Optics booth (at 9am) for live podcasts and plenty more.

Listen To Second Nature

Popfly Connects The Dots

The best part about the upcoming week at the Sea Otter Classic is the ability for Brands and Creators to connect directly. But even with a massive international event that hosts over 1,000 vendors, it’s not always as simple as it sounds to make those connections (and Sea Otter only comes around once a year). Popfly is the platform that brings Brands and Creators together in a meaningful way - supporting campaigns as well as creator initiatives. We’ve been using Popfly for our own businesses, and it’s opened new doors for some incredible opportunities, right out of the gate. Please support Second Nature by clicking the links below:

Brands: Get A Personalized Demo

Creators: Start Here!

Bikes Are Bigger Than The Industry Thinks

What if bikes could transform cities, create economies, and solve problems nobody thought they were for?

We're joined today by Peter Abraham, one of the most connected and strategic minds in the bike industry, just ahead of Sea Otter Classic. We cover a lot of ground: the state of the bike industry after a brutal few years, why e-bikes are reaching people the legacy brands never could, what London and Paris figured out about infrastructure that LA hasn't, and why Bentonville might be the most important proof of concept in outdoor sports right now.

Plus: the $21 million Scotland Mountain Bike Innovation Center, the LA Olympics bike infrastructure push, and why the brands at Sea Otter with just a tent and a couple of bikes on stands are leaving a lot on the table.

Episode 151

Job Of The Week

🎙️ Our friends at Voicing Change Media are looking for a Partnerships Manager.

🏆 Global Triathlon Network is hiring new on-camera talent!

Show Notes

• Peter Abraham

• Sea Otter Classic

• Bicycle Leadership Conference

• People For Bikes

• Modern Elder Academy

• The Algorithm (Book)

• Rivian's e-Bike

• Amsterdam, The Bike City (Video)

• Abundance (Book)

• Why Can't We Build Bike Lanes?

• Festival Trail

• Runway Group

• Scotland's MTB Innovation Center

• Atherton Bikes

BPC - Brand, Product, Content

BPC is our closing segment where we share brands we’ve discovered, products we’re using and content we love.

🚴‍♂️ Bicycle Diaries (Book): David Byrne (from the Talking Heads) wrote this book about his cycling adventures all around the world.

🌊 Barbarian Days (Book): Even if you don’t surf, this book is incredible. Arguably one of the best sports memoirs out there.

🤯 Levrack: If you’re building the dream scenario for storage in your garage, this might very well be the most insane setup of all time. We just discovered this brand, and we are obsessed.

🎯 Kitworks: Staying organized once you leave your garage is the real challenge for most of us - Kitworks makes it easy with their gear organization. This completely changed our approach to pre- and post-shred organization (and…let’s be fair, our previous approach was a pile of gear on the passenger seat).

Thank You

An early thank you to everyone who is joining us at the Second Nature meetup at Sea Otter, we can’t wait to see you there!

It feels like it was yesterday that we crossed the milestone for 100 episodes, but would you believe that was almost a year ago? A lot has changed in the past year, and we’re celebrating those changes on today’s episode.

Listen to Second Nature

150 Episodes In, We’re Just Getting Started.

50 episodes. Two years. No shortage of stuff happening.

On this milestone Bro Pod, we take stock of where Second Nature has been, and where things are heading. Digging into what's actually changed in 2026: what we've removed, working with an executive coach, launching a live weekly show, and opening the first mountain bike retail store in Shenzhen, China. Plus a real conversation about the grind before the momentum, why the irons are finally heating up, and what it feels like when years of consistent work starts clicking into place.

Episode 150

Why We Chose Popfly

We went deep on this week’s episode about why we chose Popfly as our first partner with the podcast. The platform has so much value to both Brands and Athletes/Creators, and it’s a great way to make and manage the connection between both sides. If you have a brand campaign, need content made, or just want to find top talent - this is the place. Not only that, but the tools on Popfly streamline the entire process, for both sides of the equation. We HIGHLY recommend a personalized demo of the platform, click below to get set up (and support your favorite podcast in the process).

Work At A Brand? Click here.

Are You A Creator/Athlete? Click here.

Job Of The Week

🏅 Want to work for The Olympics?! The Associate Director, Fan Experiences role is currently open!

👟 New Balance is hiring a Senior Marketing Manager, Global Run.

👉 Columbia Sportswear has an opening for an APAC Marketing Manager.

👀 Going to Outdoor Retailer? The Wild Reach Creator Program is live on Popfly, where 150 creators can get paid to attend the event to make content.

Show Notes

• Second Nature's Catalog

• Dustin Klein Video

• Matt Lloyd-Thomas on Second Nature

• Christian Rawles on Second Nature

• Christian Rawles

• Enneagram

• Super Rider

• Freetrail - Rest Day Pod

• Trailcon

• Outside Interactive’s Revenue

• The Rebooting - Outside Episode

BPC - Brand, Product, Content

BPC is our closing segment where we share brands we’ve discovered, products we’re using, and content we love.

📕 Thinking In Bets (Book): Aaron is currently reading Annie Duke’s book about making decisions with incomplete information.

👟 Speedland RXLDVL: Dylan has been testing all sorts of shoes for his upcoming Hardrock race, and this new release from Speedland is leading the charge.

Thank You

A heartfelt thank you for supporting Second Nature over the past two years as we’ve found our way here. Thank you to everyone who has been a guest on the show, everyone who has shared in the Slack channel, and most importantly - everyone who has listened to us. Upwards and onwards to the next milestone!

We are so excited to have Floris Gierman on the podcast today; we’ve been trying to organize this one for a while, and finally all of our schedules aligned to make it happen! We had a great time digging into his past, present and future - and how they all seem to magically connect to create the perfect conditions for everything he’s putting energy into. We hope you love this conversation as much as we did!

Listen To Second Nature

Connecting Brands and Creators

We are so proud to announce our first ever partnership, and we wanted to make sure that we collaborated with a business that brings value to as many people listening to this episode as possible. If you’re not familiar with Popfly, it’s a platform that connects brands to outdoor, travel and adventure creators. They streamline the entire collaborative process, from bringing the brands and creators together around campaigns, to dealing with payments and affiliate programs to keep it all organized.

From Aaron: Having been on both the Brand and Creator side of this equation, I can tell you that the way Popfly organizes everything is a level above anything else I’ve experienced. Most brand collaborations are chaotic at best, and this platform simplifies it better than anything I’ve seen. I recently set up my storefront and joined my first campaign, and honestly, it felt frictionless compared to every other brand deal I’ve ever done. This is the real deal.

If you’re interested in Popfly, please support Second Nature by using these links:

Personalized Brand Demo

Creator Setup

Why Curiosity Outlasts Strategy

Floris Gierman has it all: he's an author, content creator, co-founder of a running apparel brand, and so much more. His approach in hindsight seems methodical and measured in its approach, but the truth is that this all came around from years of consistent, small steps. In this episode, we dig into the day-to-day as well as the big picture of Floris Gierman's world.

Episode 149

Job Of The Week

🏃 New Balance is hiring a Senior Marketing Manager, Global Run Energy.

🔥 Red Bull is looking for a Brand & Partnerships Manager to drive social strategy.

🚀 Raide Research has five new roles open - go check them out!

Article Of The Week

Seth LaReau drops bangers like this on a regular basis; we’ve become huge fans of Trail Waves. If you were going to invest in trail running as a category, here’s the case to be made for the entire industry. Fascinating to see how Seth pulled it all together here:

Trail Waves

The Trail Running Investment Thesis

Imagine you’re not reading a newsletter article, but instead you’re a founder walking into a partner meeting at a top-tier VC firm, pitching trail running as an investment category…

Read more

3 months ago · 34 likes · 9 comments · Seth LaReau

Show Notes

• Floris Gierman

• Path Projects

• Floris on YouTube

• Flo’s First Video

• Extramilest Podcast

• Personal Best Running Club

• Scott Bailey

• Geoff Rowley

• Running Breakthroughs (Book)

• Ryan Hall

• Believe In The Run

• Kilian on Extramilest

BPC - Brand, Product, Content

BPC is our closing segment where we share brands we’ve discovered, products we’re using and content we love. Dylan and Aaron also shared their favorite gear recommendations (unprompted!) from Floris’s brand, Path Projects.

⛳️ Manors Golf: There are a bunch of brands developing in the golf space that are super interesting right now - and Manors is leading the charge!

🤯 KetoneIQ: Floris’s secret weapon for authoring his book Running Breakthroughs was a tiny bottle of KetoneIQ.

👉 Path Projects Base Liner: Dylan’s pick for favorite Path Projects gear is their base layer, something he’s been buying and implementing since they first came out.

📕 The Way Of Excellence (Book): Brad Stulberg has written more than a few incredible books, this one is a guide to true greatness and deep satisfaction in a chaotic world.

👕 Path Projects Basis Tee: Aaron’s pick for favorite Path Projects gear is the Basis Tee. Not only is it great for workouts, runs and rides - it’s the perfect thing for long days in airplanes. Breathable, flexible, durable - and doesn’t get gross like a cotton shirt would after 12 hours of flying.

🔥 Backcountry Slickrock Kit: Aaron’s first campaign (as a creator) with Popfly was around the new Backcountry MTB kit - and he chose the oil slick blue kit for it. Have a look!

Thank You

If you’re going to be on-site at the Sea Otter Classic in a few weeks, we are doing a Second Nature meetup and live podcast recording! Thursday AND Friday morning at the Smith Optics booth, be there at 9am to hang with us. We also have a “Sea Otter Survival Kit” for the first 20 people to show up every day, you don’t want to miss it!

The bar is set pretty high when it comes to a Jonathan Levitt appearance on the podcast. His previous two episodes have been masterclasses in performance vs brand marketing and partnership 101 (go listen to them if you haven’t already). Over the past year, he’s been working hard to develop the Long Run Labs Collective, helping outdoor and running podcasts find brand partnerships that deliver. This episode is all about the key learnings and insights that have come through over that past year.

Listen To Second Nature

The Evolution of Brands, Athletes and Creators

If there's one thing for certain, it's that nothing ever stays the same - doubly so if you're a brand in the outdoor space or an athlete or creator. Over the past year, we've had so many discussions about what's working, the right way to approach it, and how it has evolved.

Episode 148

Job Of The Week

👀 Keen has a role open for a Senior Director, Social Media and 16 other jobs!

🚀 Hollow Socks (mentioned in this week’s episode) is hiring a Sr Manager, Fulfillment & Channel Operations.

😳 Steamboat Springs is still looking for a Director of Marketing. Dream job!

🏃 Tracksmith is hiring a Production Manager, based in Boston.

👉 Our friends at Raide Research are have five roles open - have a look!

🔥 Popfly is looking for Freelance video editors and a Senior Growth Marketer.

Article Of The Week

Matt Trappe rules. Every post he shares is loaded with solid insights and actionable stuff. Conveniently, this week’s article is perfectly in line with the theme of our podcast. Read on:

A Matter of Brand

New YouTube Strategies for Athletes and Brands

YouTube is the most streamed video app in the world. Despite that accolade I think it’s still underutilized by brands and athletes in our sport. Collectively we are constantly experimenting with the ways it can be most effective…

Read more

3 months ago · 10 likes · Matt Trappe

Show Notes

• Jonathan Levitt

• Small Shows Hit Different

• Hollow Socks

• Hollow Socks on Second Nature

• Jonathan's Previous SN episode

• Brand Partnership 101 Article

• Substack Podcasts

• Colleen Quigley

• Kitworks

• Claude

• Eternal

• Alex Mather on Second Nature

• The Huddle

• Second Nature Slack

BPC - Brand, Product, Content

BPC is our closing segment where we share brands we’ve discovered, products we’re using and content we love.

📕 Raziq Rauf "This Is Running" (Book): Raz was recently on the podcast, and now his long-awaited book has hit the shelves! Get your copy now if you haven’t already!
🤯 Seth LaRue Trail Waves: Trail Waves has been referenced in this newsletter multiple times so far, it’s one of our favorite Substacks to check out. Seth dives deep into the industry and offers up some insightful perspectives.
🚴‍♂️ Wahoo Kickr: If you want to ride a bike indoors, this setup is the move. You can drop your existing bike on it, easy setup and tons of fun!

Thank You

Wow, only two episodes until our 150 episode milestone! We’ve got some exciting conversations lined up and we can’t wait to share them with you. In addition to that, we have a special announcement that we’ll be sharing along with episode 150. Stay tuned!

It’s always interesting to have four people on the podcast at one time, but we are so glad that we did it for this week’s episode. Adrian Ballinger, outdoor legend and founder of Alpenglow Expeditions, recently went through an acquisition process with Milky Way Park - and we got a chance to ask Adrian and MWP’s Matt Lloyd-Thomas all about it.

Listen To Second Nature

A Refreshing Approach To Acquisition In the Outdoor Industry

Recently, two long-standing outdoor industry businesses, Alpenglow Expeditions and Thomson Bike Tours, were acquired by Milky Way Park. But while acquisitions are nothing new to the outdoor industry, the way it came together (and continues to develop) is worth a closer look. On this episode, iconic athlete and Alpenglow founder Adrian Ballinger joins Milky Way Park's founder Matthew Lloyd-Thomas to share the story.

Episode 147

Job Of The Week

🚀 Our friends at Raide Research are hiring. Five incredible roles just opened up, take a look and tell them we sent you!

🌎 Lululemon is looking for a Senior Global Sports Marketing Manager.

🏃 Tracksmith is hiring a Production Manager, based in Boston.

👀 Catch the latest job postings and outdoor industry discussion in our (free) Slack Channel:

Join Second Nature Slack

Show Notes

• Adrian Ballinger

• Alpenglow Expeditions

• Matthew Lloyd-Thomas

• Milky Way Park

• Chernin Group

• Unrivaled Sports

• Emily Harrington

• Thomson Bike Tours

• Aiden Charles (Coach)

• The Duffel Shuffle Podcast

• DangerStik

• Mt Everest Ski Project

• Centium AI

BPC - Brand, Product, Content

BPC is our closing segment where we share brands we’ve discovered, products we’re using and content that we love. This week’s guests knocked it out of the park - they delivered on all three categories!

🔧 Luft Bike Shop: Matt’s favorite shop in LA - definitely worth a look!
🚴‍♂️ Zipp 404 Wheels: Fast, favorite wheels from Zipp - a solid option if you’re joining a Thomson Bike Tour (or smashing Strava routes in NYC).
📕 Keith McNally "I Regret Everything" (Book): A memoir about NYC, unreasonable hospitality and plenty more.
🥹 Derek Thompson - Fatherhood: This article caught all the dads on the podcast - it’s a must-read, whether you’re a parent or not.
🧦 Lenz Heated Socks: These socks are an absolute game-changer for Adrian, highly recommended if you have cold feet about getting outside!
🏆 Broken Arrow Skyrace: Legendary Tahoe race, led by friend-of-the-pod Brendan Madigan.
🎙️ Tangle Podcast: A podcast that shares left, right and individual opinions on politics.
📷 Freehub Magazine: Mountain biking’s high quality print magazine, incredible images and storytelling in every episode.
🤯 John Mackey on David Senra: The founder of Whole Foods meets the host of the Founders podcast.
👉 Jason Fried on David Senra: The founder of 37 Signals shares the message: “your only competition is your cost”. Worth a listen!

Thank You

The return of “The Professor” next week - one of our favorite recurring guests joins the podcast to chat about content, partnerships, and how to bring the most value while building trust with the community.

Mel Strong absolutely crushed it during her first appearance on the podcast, and now she’s back for a round two. During this conversation, we cover a lot of ground - but we think you’ll especially find the segment about raising funds and capital deployment to be particularly fascinating.

Listen To Second Nature

The Future Of Investing In The Outdoor Industry

Mel Strong made a meaningful impression during her first appearance on the podcast, and we've got her back on the podcast again to demystify how brands can raise capital, how to speak to boards and VCs, and to answer the all-important question...should we have our own venture fund?

Episode 146

Job Of The Week

🔥 Under Armour is looking for someone to lead Global Brand Events for them. Massive!

🏔️ Saatchi & Saatchi is hiring a Content Specialist for Outdoor and Adventure.

🇬🇧 UK-based? Apidura is hiring a Senior Softgoods Designer.

Article Of The Week

If you’re not already subscribed to Matt Trappe’s Matter Of Brand newsletter, we highly recommend it. Here’s a taste of his most recent article:

A Matter of Brand

A Look at Product Launch Storytelling

I was going to send this Friday but with so many people in LA for the marathon and Las Palmas for Transgrancanaria I decided to wait. I hope the event and travel hangover isn’t hitting you all too hard…

Read more

3 months ago · 22 likes · 3 comments · Matt Trappe

Show Notes

• Mel Strong

• Mel's First Second Nature Episode

• Next Ventures

• TRE - The Running Event

• Nike ACG

• Oura

• Trial Library

• Eternal

• Trucks (VC)

• Next Ventures Substack

• Felix Kim

• Ramble Campgrounds

BPC - Brand, Product, Content

BPC is our closing segment where we share brands we’ve discovered, products we’re using and content that we love.

⛺️ Ramble Campground: Mel recently invested in Ramble, which is building outdoor camping spaces with a fresh, new approach.
👕 Path Projects - Basis Tee: These shirts are becoming Aaron’s go-to for all activities - not just running and riding. We’re looking forward to having Floris from Path on the podcast later this month!
📕 The Courage To Be Disliked (Book): Don’t let the title fool you, there’s a lot more to this book than just the title. Dylan has been reading this one lately and pulling a lot of wisdom from it.

Thank You

This week’s episode was one of our favorites, it’s always great to have Mel join us on the podcast! Next week, we’ll continue with another conversation with a similar thread of investment in the outdoor industry. Stay tuned!

We’ve been big fans of Uplift, and its founder, Rachael Burnside - and we’re excited to share our conversation with her on this week’s podcast. In this episode, she talks about the blueprint that any industry could follow to build this up - not just cycling.

Listen To Second Nature

Uplifting Talent In The Outdoor Industry

Rachael Burnside saw an opportunity to build a stronger community of women in the bike industry by connecting experienced mentors with mentees, which would help build and retain top talent. The fifth round of the Uplift mentorship program is now underway, and in our conversation, Rachael breaks down the playbook of what it took to build this program - and how any other industry can adapt and benefit from making these connections.

Episode 145

Article Of The Week

We recently mentioned The Anti Blueprint Project on the podcast in a BPC segment, and ACG has been a hot topic the past few months. Here’s a deep dive into the brand, from a slightly different angle than we normally get.

The Anti Blueprint Project

ACG

You would have been hard pressed to work within marketing, sports or the outdoors industry and have not seen the current brand focus that Nike are throwing behind ACG. It’s been nothing short of a masterclass and for that we have to give the team the flowers…

Read more

4 months ago · 14 likes · 2 comments · The Anti Blueprint Project

Job Of The Week

💰 Nike has two insane jobs up for grabs: New Business & Corporate Development Lead and Senior Director, New Business & Corporate Development.

🚀 Our friends at Popfly are hiring a Senior Growth Marketer.

⌚️ Amazfit is looking for a Marketing and Partnerships Manager for North America.

Show Notes

• Rachael Burnside

• Uplift

• Shift Active Media

• Rouleur

• Rouleur Live

• Rapha

• Alexa Cunningham

• Kate Veronneau on Second Nature

• Stacy Perlis (CFO at Wahoo)

BPC - Brand, Product, Content

BPC is our closing segment where we share brands that we’ve discovered, products we’re using and content that we love.

🏆 Pure Sport: Electrolytes are all the rage now, and our podcast guest Rachael is a big fan of Pure Sport for all of her cycling needs.
🚴‍♂️ Upway: If you’re finally in the market for an eBike this year, check out Upway. They sell used bikes that have been certified by mechanics. No more sketchy parking lot bike pickups, give this site a look!
👀 Adweek Article - Outside Interactive: It appears that the Outside Interactive ship is starting to trend in the right direction with their digital business. What does that mean for the rest of Outside?

Thank You

Next week we have a returning guest and we can’t wait for you to hear the conversation we had with her. Get ready to learn how to speak business, finance and fundraising!

Thanks again for listening to the podcast, we’re getting incredibly close to our next milestone - almost 150 episodes!

We’re all looking for a blueprint, a formula, a roadmap - anything to help us in our decision making process. Our friend Wylie has spent over a decade pushing through uncharted territory as he’s created an outdoor brand from scratch, and today he’s taking us through every step of the process, with the wisdom he’s earned along the way.

Listen To Second Nature

The Roadmap of Rumpl

Wylie Robinson co-founded Rumpl over a decade ago, bringing an idea to life in the way that every outdoor entrepreneur dreams of doing. Over that time, he's experienced the twists and turns, ups and downs, and during this introspective discussion, we dig into the roadmap and the lessons he's learned from the journey (so far).

Episode 144

Job Of The Week

🏃🏻‍♀️ If you’ve heard us talk about TRE on the pod, now you can work for them! The Running Event is hiring a Marketing Manager to support the event.

🏔️ Hoka is looking for an Associate Creative Director, a remote, full-time position reporting into the VP of Marketing for the North American team.

🔥 Wahoo needs a Senior Project Manager for their indoor training equipment (bikes and treadmills).

Article Of The Week

“Download count is a poor proxy for commercial intent.” Read that again. This is something we’ve always known, but now Jonathan Levitt has the receipts.

Long Run Labs

What 23 Sponsorship Campaigns Taught Me About Endurance Athletes and Money

I’ve been doing brand partnerships in the endurance space since 2020. For most of that time, I priced them above the market CPM rate; not because I had the data to back it up, but because I’d spent enough time working with brands to understand something most podcast sellers don’t: attribution in this space is broken by default, and the actual value bein…

Read more

4 months ago · 2 likes · Long Run Labs

Show Notes

• Wylie Robinson

• Rumpl

• Kickstarter

• Huckberry

• White Road Investments

• Rumpl on Shark Tank

• Rumpl Collabs

BPC - Brand, Product, Content

BPC is our closing segment where we share brands we’ve discovered, products we’re using and content that we love.

🚲 Kids Ride Shotgun: Wylie has been getting his kiddo out on two wheels with the help of this special seat that goes right onto his bike, so they can enjoy rides on trail together!
🚀 TowWhee: If you’re towing anyone with a bike, this little strap is a game changer!
🏆 Super Rider x Chris King: Aaron shot a full factory tour with his friends at Chris King; you’ll be surprised to see everything that goes into making high end bike parts.

Thank You

Stay tuned for next week’s podcast, it’s all about mentorship in the outdoor industry - and a blueprint to build a community of mentors and mentees around the world. We’ve been wanting to have this guest on the podcast for a while, and we think you’ll like it!

We have been huge fans of Christian Rawles - host of the KORE Podcast, but also a wise friend who has helped point us in the right direction more than a few times. This week’s podcast conversation is a little different than the deep dives and backstories that we usually get into - but we think you’ll find it interesting, helpful, and insightful.

Listen To Second Nature

Uncovering The Fear Of Success

Christian Rawles joins the podcast today for an extremely open and honest discussion about career, success, and how we approach our work. Christian has inspired so many thought-provoking conversations offline, we had to get him on the podcast to share his wisdom and insights with everyone. This is a special episode, we hope you enjoy it!

Episode 143

Job Of The Week

🏃🏻‍♀️ While we do our best to highlight a few jobs each week, our friends at WIRE (Work In Running Email) put together a massive list of open roles that you can check out here!

Article Of The Week

Raziq Rauf was on the podcast a few weeks back, and his latest article caught us with the line about social media and podcasts that “talk about running culture only in terms of fashion”. This article with Zoë Rom is a refreshing look at running culture from a much different perspective, and we think you’ll dig it:

Running Sucks

The conspicuous consumption of running culture

Food culture for runners with Zoë Rom…

Read more

4 months ago · 14 likes · 1 comment · Raziq Rauf

Show Notes

• Christian Rawles

• KORE Podcast

• Enneagram Test

• Enneagram Made Easy (Book)

• Tiny Experiments (Book)

• Billy Oppenheimer Newsletter

• The Go-Giver (Book)

• The Lion Tracker's Guide To Life (Book)

• The Gap and The Gain (Book)

• Founders Podcast

• Five Year Journal

BPC - Brand, Product, Content

BPC is our closing segment where we share brands we’ve discovered, products we’re using and content that we love.

⛺️ Durston Gear: Christian’s choice for premium ultralight camping equipment - give them a look!
👉 Centium AI: People are using AI more and more to answer their questions about basically everything. If you want to make sure your brand (product, content) is showing up in the AI’s answers - this is a platform that will help you find out where you stand.
🤯 Jonathan Weaver's Substack: The CMO of Db Travel and author of The Anti-Blueprint Project drops some serious brand knowledge on this platform.
🐺 Powerwolf: Ok, if you’re in the middle of a heavy climb (bikes or running), the song “Amen and Attack” will give you a legitimate boost. This german metal band brings their own style to metal - and that’s the real lesson (listen to this explanation on the podcast, it makes a lot more sense in context).

Thank You

Stay tuned, next week we’ll be joined by a long time founder and friend who was incredibly overdue for an appearance on the podcast!

It’s always fun when we are joined by another podcaster, this episode was a fun way to compare notes and dig into the burning questions we have for a high profile athlete who is making a very significant change to her career. Chasing a completely new discipline requires a lot of change outside of the race course as well, and Des gave us the inside scoop on how she’s thinking through all of it.

Listen To Second Nature

The Past, Present and Future Of Des Linden

After winning the Boston Marathon, writing a book, hosting a giant running podcast...what's next? We caught up with Des Linden to talk about her career so far, but more importantly, where she's heading next.

Episode 142

Job Of The Week

🧦 Hollow Socks has an In-House Content Creator role open. Co-founder Brian Davis was just on the podcast last week, check it out if you haven’t already!

💨 Tailwind Nutrition is looking for a Creative Manager.

👨🏻‍💻 Avelo is hiring an Algorithm Engineer to help make their smart shoes even smarter!

👉 If you’re not already in our Slack community, now would be a great time to join us. Our Slack channel is loaded with news and discussions about every topic related to the outdoor industry, collaborations, and job opportunities.

Join Us In Slack

Article Of The Week

We are big fans of Matt Trappe and this article is a literal masterclass. There’s a reason why we look to him for his insights on brand and storytelling.

A Matter of Brand

The New Brand Paradigm ➡ Culture Stacks

How would I organize a marketing framework for success in our modern world? I just wrapped a consulting project on collab strategy where I found myself revisiting several patterns I had noticed over the years. Also recently, I interviewed at a brand that chose not to engage me in final round interviews and a lot of my ideas were left unsaid. Around the …

Read more

4 months ago · 6 likes · Matt Trappe

Show Notes

• Des Linden

• Nobody Asked Us (Podcast)

• GU x Des Partnership

• Magda Boulet

• Ruth Croft

• Brooks - Chief Running Advisor

• Choosing To Run (Book)

• Marathon des Sables

• Black Canyon 50K

Here’s the Subway Takes clip we mentioned on the pod - check it out!

BPC - Brand, Product, Content

BPC is our closing segment where we share brands we’ve discovered, products we’re using and content that we love.

🏃🏻‍♀️ Brooks Cascadia Elite (as seen at Paris Fashion Week): Des is the “Chief Running Officer” at Brooks, so she brought the latest pair of Brooks shoes to the pod, which are showing up on the runway at Paris Fashion Week.
🥵 Clearlight Infrared Sauna: Aaron had a big life upgrade last week, finally installing his new outdoor infrared sauna. Now Dylan and Aaron have matching infrared saunas! Check these out if you are looking at adding a sauna to your program!
🤯 Nothing.Tech: Dylan dropped this brand on the podcast this week and it caught us all by surprise. Who willingly tries to compete with Apple?! Very cool tech…worth a look.
💰 The Generalist: Here’s a Substack loaded with a ton of insights and articles about the world of tech and VC. Lots of interesting stuff here to check out.

Thank You

Next week’s podcast conversation is a little different than what we usually have on the podcast, but we think you’re going to find it fascinating. It’s called “Uncovering The Fear Of Success”. Stay tuned!

We met the guest of today’s podcast, Brian Davis, at the Outdoor Media Summit last year in Durango. He spoke on a panel that was easily the most talked-about presentation of the week. We knew we needed to bring him on the podcast to hear more, and he did not disappoint!

Listen To Second Nature

The Outdoor Brand Spending $1 MILLION On Ads (Every Month)

You could've heard a pin drop at Outdoor Media Summit when Brian Davis told the audience his brand spends one million dollars on ads every month. But how did he get here? In this week's episode, we got to dive into Brian's history of launching and building brands - and the conversation that followed did not disappoint.

Episode 141

Job Of The Week

🏆 Zwift is hiring two roles: Partnerships Marketing Manager and Junior Sports Marketing Coordinator.

Article Of The Week

If you missed the Freetrail episode with Seth LaReau this week, check out his latest article about Tantrums. Also featured in this article is the new Raide Research Firsts Grant, which you should definitely check out!

Trail Waves

Inside Tantrums: How a First-Time Founder Built One of Trail Running's Coolest Brands

Up until late 2025, I assumed the hydration vest market in trail running was more or less solved…

Read more

4 months ago · 3 likes · Seth LaReau

Show Notes

• Brian Davis

• Hollow Socks

• Fix It Sticks

• Back Bottle

• Zach Stuck

• Zach's Agency

• Josh Haskins (New GM)

• Scheels

BPC - Brand, Product, Content

BPC is our closing segment where we share brands that we’ve discovered, products we’re using, and content that we love.

🚴‍♂️ Wahoo Bike: Brian committed to the full Wahoo bike with all the bells and whistles, which is getting him through the winter. While their other models (Kickr, etc) get the job done, nothing beats the full setup from Wahoo.
💨 Fanttik X10 Ace Mini Bike Pump: Aaron has taken the leap into the future with this electric bike pump. No more CO2 cartridges, no more hand pumps filling up his pack - this one is super small and super effective. (Plus you can use his coupon code SRX10ACEM for 40% off.)
🤯 Founders Podcast - Kevin Kelly: Kevin Kelly (the founder of Wired Magazine, among many other things) shared 79 pieces of wisdom, and David Senra from Founders Podcast repeated this timeless wisdom on this podcast.

Thank You

Next week’s podcast is with a top-tier athlete who is just entering the trail running space. We dug into the pivot, but also went deep on the business side of being a top-tier athlete (and podcaster). Stay tuned!

We’ve been wanting to have our friend Raziq Rauf on the podcast for a while, and the timing couldn’t have been better. Aaron is currently starting to work on his first book, turning to Raz for some much-needed advice. In addition, this conversation is an absolute blueprint for how to get a publishing deal, how to write the book, and what to expect along the way. For anyone who has ever wanted to become a published author, this episode is for you!

Listen To Second Nature

How To Write A Book About Running

Raziq Rauf is the author behind "This Is Running" a new book that comes out in a few short months. Raz is also the author behind Running Sucks on Substack, and in this episode we dig into the process of becoming a published author, along with all the necessary hurdles to get over the hurdles to making it happen.

Episode 140

Job Of The Week

🚀 There is a Red Bull Athlete Marketing Manager job open in the Minneapolis region.

🏔️ Arc’teryx is hiring a Global Communications Manager on a temporary full-time basis (through March 2027).

👉 Kinetik Outdoor Products is looking for a Marketing Coordinator based in Central Oregon.

Article Of The Week

If you’re not already reading Raz’s writing over at Running Sucks, consider this your sign to check it out:

Running Sucks

I wrote a book.

2025 has been the strangest year. The world around me repeatedly seemed to catch fire (both literally and figuratively), but in the midst of all of it, I signed a deal to write my first book. And then I wrote it…

Read more

8 months ago · 26 likes · 15 comments · Raziq Rauf

Show Notes

• Raziq Rauf

• This Is Running (Book)

• Running Sucks (Newsletter)

• Batsford Publishing

• David Miller (Photographer)

• Brandon Leonard

• Like The Wind

• Chuck Palahniuk Substack

• Grant Wall (Journalist)

• Sabrina Little - The Examined Run

• Duhkha

BPC - Brand, Product, Content

BPC is our closing segment where we share brands we’ve discovered, products we’re using and content that we love.

📕 "The Running Ground": Raziq is reading this for the second time, this book was authored by Nicolas Thompson, who is CEO of The Atlantic.
🌎 The Paperclip.cc: Friend-of-the-pod Abe Alkhamees created this magazine with cycling stories from all around the world. Issue one was incredible, we’re already excited to see what’s next!
🏛️ Greeking Out (Nat Geo): If you’re a parent, you need this podcast in your life. Greek mythology told in a kid-friendly way, with crazy production value. (Aaron: It’s pretty good for adults, too, I might like it even more than my kids do!)

Thank You

Next week’s podcast conversation is with a founder who we met at Outdoor Media Summit last year. He spoke on one of the panels and when he said, “we spend one million dollars a month on advertising,” our ears perked up. Dylan said this was a Hall of Fame episode, we can’t wait for you to hear it!